Talk:Roast turkey/Archive 2: Difference between revisions

Latest revision as of 18:28, 18 October 2010

1, 2

Talk page of "Roast turkey (American)" after the main page was moved to a Recipes subpage.

This revision shows the talk page as it was when the page was copied to the talk page of "Roast turkey" (newly created). It is at the top of the talk page following this one.

The page now shows the discussion after this move (by copying).

Disagree

Hayford, you didn't discuss this before doing it, and I believe renaming is just as much an issue as large deletes. Now, this is not to say there couldn't be a multicultural article on roast turkey, but the procedure bothers me.

Mary, once others have contributed articles, no non-Editor can call for deletion unless the article meets one of the specific criteria for removal by Constables. The Editors have a broader range of reasons for deletion, but -- trust me -- I have, as an Editor, sometimes had to argue long and hard to get a deletion. Howard C. Berkowitz 17:10, 16 October 2010 (UTC)

Howard, the way the article was written by Peter and various people it no longer had *any* connection to American turkey. The article was now completely free of ethnocentricism. Read it. It would be as strange to keep the (American) in the title as would would be have an article called Roast beef (English) merely because it said in the article that English people like eating it. In any case, it was *I*, way back in the dark ages of this article, who originally MOVED it to Roast turkey (American), BECAUSE it was ethnocentric. Now that it isn't, there's no reason to keep that word in the title. Please now go read the article itself and then come back and tell me that I shouldn't have done what I did. Thanks! Hayford Peirce 17:19, 16 October 2010 (UTC)

Thank you Hayford for your most gracious and diplomatic response. You are a class act! Also, you are a fine example of what I suspect a good Citizendium and wiki contributor should be. Thanks so much for all your help. Now I'm back to gardening...Mary Ash 17:34, 16 October 2010 (UTC)

And I forgot to add: It was because of everyone's editorial advice that I was able to learn how to expand the article. Thanks again!Mary Ash 17:36, 16 October 2010 (UTC)

Hayford, did the recipes tab go missing in the move? David Finn 17:42, 16 October 2010 (UTC)

Yes, I'm just about trying to restore it. Or recreate it. Hope it's easy! Hayford Peirce 17:43, 16 October 2010 (UTC)

Ah, thanks and good luck! David Finn 17:44, 16 October 2010 (UTC)

Sorry, Hayford, you acted in a rush, and now the situation is even more confused than it was before. For instance, if these pages get deleted then the Recipes subpage and the archived talk page will be orphaned. If you wanted to change the title you should have moved the page and not copied its content. Moreover, why copying the content of this talk page to the other one? It is not related to the content there (but to the cluster here). Thus I will now remove the speedydelete templates now, and we will discuss how to resolve this. --Peter Schmitt 17:47, 16 October 2010 (UTC)

I initially *tried* to Move it -- but was told that "Roast turkey" already existed -- which it did, as a Redirect. So it couldn't be Moved, because I don't have the powers any longer to DELETE the earlier Roast turkey. So that's why I copied everything and asked for speedy deletes. Now, however, we have TWO separate Recipe tabs. Identical contents, however. Hayford Peirce 17:50, 16 October 2010 (UTC)

Since these were only redirects without a history the move would have worked if you checked "update redirects" (I think). If not then one has delete (or request to delete) the redirect first ...

The two tabs are shown because you incorrectly filled in the Metadata: tab1 has to be left empty! (we recently discussed this!)

The Recipes subpage could have been moved -- its place was empty!

--Peter Schmitt 18:02, 16 October 2010 (UTC)

Let me know when you need things deleted once you decide what needs to move where and when. D. Matt Innis 18:22, 16 October 2010 (UTC)

(unindent) As far as I can tell, Matt, all the Roast turkey (American) stuff can be now be deleted EXCEPT THIS PAGE -- all the other stuff has been copied to the Roast turkey main article, Talk page, and Recipes tab, and Metadata. So only this talk here could be copied (onto the other Talk page maybe?). And then the whole cluster can be Gone with the Wind. Thanks! Hayford Peirce 18:58, 16 October 2010 (UTC)

Put speedydeletes on them for me. Are you sure you don't want me to merge histories on some of these? D. Matt Innis 00:26, 17 October 2010 (UTC)

Now all the pages have their own history and therefore should not be deleted, but merged or archived. See Talk:Roast_turkey#Turkey and allthat. --Peter Schmitt 00:32, 17 October 2010 (UTC)

Disagree

Hayford, you didn't discuss this before doing it, and I believe renaming is just as much an issue as large deletes. Now, this is not to say there couldn't be a multicultural article on roast turkey, but the procedure bothers me.

Mary, once others have contributed articles, no non-Editor can call for deletion unless the article meets one of the specific criteria for removal by Constables. The Editors have a broader range of reasons for deletion, but -- trust me -- I have, as an Editor, sometimes had to argue long and hard to get a deletion. Howard C. Berkowitz 17:10, 16 October 2010 (UTC)

Howard, the way the article was written by Peter and various people it no longer had *any* connection to American turkey. The article was now completely free of ethnocentricism. Read it. It would be as strange to keep the (American) in the title as would would be have an article called Roast beef (English) merely because it said in the article that English people like eating it. In any case, it was *I*, way back in the dark ages of this article, who originally MOVED it to Roast turkey (American), BECAUSE it was ethnocentric. Now that it isn't, there's no reason to keep that word in the title. Please now go read the article itself and then come back and tell me that I shouldn't have done what I did. Thanks! Hayford Peirce 17:19, 16 October 2010 (UTC)

Hayford, I don't especially disagree with the new title. My concern, after several other recent experience, is that a move is at least as disruptive as a deletion of 50 words or more. Using that example, it is my opinion that proposed renamings need to be preannounced and quite possibly get a consensus. While you are certainly a content contributor here, I'm also sensitive to unilateral renaming/move by people not involved in the content, especially who are not also Editors of an applicable workgroup. Howard C. Berkowitz 19:28, 16 October 2010 (UTC)

Apologies

I didn't intend to delete anything.

All in all, though, I think I'm going to move my attention to other articles. Turkey related things are coming off my watchlist. Howard C. Berkowitz 00:57, 17 October 2010 (UTC)

@@ Line 1: / Line 1: @@
-{{subpages}}
+{{subpages}} {{Archive box}}
-{{Archive box}}
-<br><br><br><br><br>
-== Move to subpage ==
-===Requesting Page Deletion===
-Requesting page deletion as article does not fit Citizendium standards. [[User:Mary Ash|Mary Ash]] 04:15, 16 October 2010 (UTC)
-:Impetuous; don't delete - you worked hard on the content, which should be integrated elsewhere.  [[User:Aleta Curry|Aleta Curry]] 05:08, 16 October 2010 (UTC)
+Talk page of "Roast turkey (American)" after the main page was moved to a Recipes subpage.
-:That didn't work with Marian apparitions, and I hope it won't work here. The information just needs to be put in the right place, not deleted. [[User:David Finn|David Finn]] 06:36, 16 October 2010 (UTC)
+[http://en.citizendium.org/wiki?title=Talk:Roast_turkey/Archive_2&oldid=100721586 This revision] shows the talk page as it was when the page was
+copied to the talk page of "Roast turkey" (newly created). It is at the top of the talk page following this one.
-:: Mary, you should already know that requesting to delete this page is not what is to be done. Thus I have moved the page to the /Recipes subpage.
+The page now shows the discussion after this move (by copying).
-:: You have put much effort into this page and collected material, but it needs more work to shape it into a good recipes page. So, please, do not just leave it behind but continue to work on it (with the help of the community). You may take your time, of course -- there is no deadline to meet!
-:: --[[User:Peter Schmitt|Peter Schmitt]] 08:59, 16 October 2010 (UTC)
-:::No, Peter I did not know that an author could request a page deletion. How do you request a page be deleted? I plan no more work on this article as it does not meet Citizendium standards. The one thing I learned in life, so far, is to know when to cut your losses. I am moving onto to other articles to write. Again, how do you request a page deletion? I searched Citizendium and could find nothing to enlighten me on this subject. Thanks![[User:Mary Ash|Mary Ash]] 14:39, 16 October 2010 (UTC)
-::::Perhaps you should re-read what Peter has written - he said requesting page deletion was '''not''' what is to be done.
+----
-::::Oh, and if you want to know how to request deletion of a page, ask the person who placed the speedy delete tag on the article. Speedy delete tags are how you do it. [[User:David Finn|David Finn]] 14:56, 16 October 2010 (UTC)
-:::::David I AM the person who requested the speedy delete and it was refused.[[User:Mary Ash|Mary Ash]] 15:05, 16 October 2010 (UTC)
-==Title Change to Roast turkey==
+----
-Requesting title change to Roast turkey. The current title is inaccurate as roast turkey is eaten worldwide. As shown the British have been eating roast turkey back in the time of King Henry VIII and is still eaten today. The directions for preparing a roast turkey could be used by anyone, in any country, at any time, especially since the metric and Gas Mark measurements are now included.[[User:Mary Ash|Mary Ash]] 14:52, 16 October 2010 (UTC)
+== Disagree ==
+Hayford, you didn't discuss this before doing it, and I believe renaming is just as much an issue as large deletes. Now, this is not to say there couldn't be a multicultural article on roast turkey, but the procedure bothers me.
+Mary, once others have contributed articles, no non-Editor can call for deletion unless the article meets one of the specific criteria for removal by Constables. The Editors have a broader range of reasons for deletion, but -- trust me -- I have, as an Editor, sometimes had to argue long and hard to get a deletion. [[User:Howard C. Berkowitz|Howard C. Berkowitz]] 17:10, 16 October 2010 (UTC)
+:Howard, the way the article was written by Peter and various people it no longer had *any* connection to American turkey.  The article was now completely free of ethnocentricism.  Read it.  It would be as strange to keep the (American) in the title as would would be have an article called [[Roast beef (English)]] merely because it said in the article that English people like eating it. In any case, it was *I*, way back in the dark ages of this article, who originally MOVED it to Roast turkey (American), BECAUSE it was ethnocentric.  Now that it isn't, there's no reason to keep that word in the title.  Please now go read the article itself and then come back and tell me that I shouldn't have done what I did.  Thanks! [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] 17:19, 16 October 2010 (UTC)
+::Thank you Hayford for your most gracious and diplomatic response. You are a class act! Also, you are a fine example of what I suspect a good Citizendium and wiki contributor should be. Thanks so much for all your help. Now I'm back to gardening...[[User:Mary Ash|Mary Ash]] 17:34, 16 October 2010 (UTC)
+:::And I forgot to add:  It was because of everyone's editorial advice that I was able to learn how to expand the article. Thanks again![[User:Mary Ash|Mary Ash]] 17:36, 16 October 2010 (UTC)
+::Hayford, did the recipes tab go missing in the move? [[User:David Finn|David Finn]] 17:42, 16 October 2010 (UTC)
+:::Yes, I'm just about trying to restore it.  Or recreate it. Hope it's easy! [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] 17:43, 16 October 2010 (UTC)
+::::Ah, thanks and good luck! [[User:David Finn|David Finn]] 17:44, 16 October 2010 (UTC)
+::::: Sorry, Hayford, you acted in a rush, and now the situation is even more confused than it was before. For instance, if these pages get deleted then the Recipes subpage and the archived talk page will be orphaned. If you wanted to change the title you should have '''moved''' the page and not copied its content. Moreover, why copying the content of this talk page to the other one? It is not related to the content there (but to the cluster here). Thus I will now remove the speedydelete templates now, and we will discuss how to resolve this. --[[User:Peter Schmitt|Peter Schmitt]] 17:47, 16 October 2010 (UTC)
+::::::I initially *tried* to Move it -- but was told that "Roast turkey" already existed -- which it did, as a Redirect.  So it couldn't be Moved, because I don't have the powers any longer to DELETE the earlier Roast turkey. So that's why I copied everything and asked for speedy deletes.  Now, however, we have TWO separate Recipe tabs.  Identical contents, however. [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] 17:50, 16 October 2010 (UTC)
+::::::: Since these were only redirects without a history the move would have worked if you checked "update redirects" (I think). If not then one has delete (or request to delete) the redirect first ...
+::::::: The two tabs are shown because you incorrectly filled in the Metadata: tab1 has to be left empty! (we recently discussed this!)
+::::::: The Recipes subpage could have been moved -- its place was empty!
+::::::: --[[User:Peter Schmitt|Peter Schmitt]] 18:02, 16 October 2010 (UTC)
+::::::::Let me know when you need things deleted once you decide what needs to move where and when. [[User:D. Matt Innis|D. Matt Innis]] 18:22, 16 October 2010 (UTC)
+(unindent) As far as I can tell, Matt, all the Roast turkey (American) stuff can be now be deleted EXCEPT THIS PAGE -- all the other stuff has been copied to the [[Roast turkey]] main article, Talk page, and Recipes tab, and Metadata.  So only this talk here could be copied (onto the other Talk page maybe?). And then the whole cluster can be Gone with the Wind.  Thanks! [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] 18:58, 16 October 2010 (UTC)
+:Put speedydeletes on them for me.  Are you sure you don't want me to merge histories on some of these? [[User:D. Matt Innis|D. Matt Innis]] 00:26, 17 October 2010 (UTC)
+:: Now all the pages have their own history and therefore should not be deleted, but merged or archived. See [[Talk:Roast_turkey#Turkey and allthat]]. --[[User:Peter Schmitt|Peter Schmitt]] 00:32, 17 October 2010 (UTC)
+== Disagree ==
+Hayford, you didn't discuss this before doing it, and I believe renaming is just as much an issue as large deletes. Now, this is not to say there couldn't be a multicultural article on roast turkey, but the procedure bothers me.
+Mary, once others have contributed articles, no non-Editor can call for deletion unless the article meets one of the specific criteria for removal by Constables. The Editors have a broader range of reasons for deletion, but -- trust me -- I have, as an Editor, sometimes had to argue long and hard to get a deletion. [[User:Howard C. Berkowitz|Howard C. Berkowitz]] 17:10, 16 October 2010 (UTC)
+:Howard, the way the article was written by Peter and various people it no longer had *any* connection to American turkey.  The article was now completely free of ethnocentricism.  Read it.  It would be as strange to keep the (American) in the title as would would be have an article called [[Roast beef (English)]] merely because it said in the article that English people like eating it. In any case, it was *I*, way back in the dark ages of this article, who originally MOVED it to Roast turkey (American), BECAUSE it was ethnocentric.  Now that it isn't, there's no reason to keep that word in the title.  Please now go read the article itself and then come back and tell me that I shouldn't have done what I did.  Thanks! [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] 17:19, 16 October 2010 (UTC)
+::Hayford, I don't especially disagree with the new title. My concern, after several other recent experience, is that a move is at least as disruptive as a deletion of 50 words or more. Using that example, it is my opinion that proposed renamings need to be preannounced and quite possibly get a consensus. While you are certainly a content contributor here, I'm also sensitive to unilateral renaming/move by people not involved in the content, especially who are not also Editors of an applicable workgroup. [[User:Howard C. Berkowitz|Howard C. Berkowitz]] 19:28, 16 October 2010 (UTC)
+==Apologies==
+I didn't intend to delete anything.
+All in all, though, I think I'm going to move my attention to other articles. Turkey related things are coming off my watchlist. [[User:Howard C. Berkowitz|Howard C. Berkowitz]] 00:57, 17 October 2010 (UTC)

Talk:Roast turkey/Archive 2: Difference between revisions

Latest revision as of 18:28, 18 October 2010

Disagree

Disagree

Apologies

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