Talk:Renewable energy

Renewable energy

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Archive 1

Renewable energy development was merged into this Renewable energy article on May 27, 2010

The merged Talk page is now stored in Talk:Renewable energy/Archive 1 so that the Talk page for the merged article can start clean. The main article content will now be revised to rationalize the merged article.

The reason for the merger was that the two article overlapped each other a great deal. Milton Beychok 03:53, 28 May 2010 (UTC)

Finished cleanup of the merged main article and its references. Could probably still use a detailed review by others. Milton Beychok 05:30, 28 May 2010 (UTC)

Politics of energy

Actually, I'm not sure if this comment is as a politics, military, history or engineering editor, but do look at battleship#propulsion for a bit of history on how the Middle East and oil became critical to the British Empire. I don't think one can really address the rationale for renewable energy without addressing the impact of Middle East oil, and that renewable energy offers an alternative. Remember that Europe and Japan are even more dependent on Mideast oil than the U.S. Howard C. Berkowitz 00:28, 29 May 2010 (UTC)

Howard, thanks for writing the section on "Political contributions". Milton Beychok 21:32, 29 May 2010 (UTC)

Cogeneration, North American grid weaknesses, finances vs. reliability

I've alluded to cogeneration and power sales on a deregulated grid, but perhaps these should be introduced earlier. The idea that a number of renewable sources can, in an environmentally friendly way, generate power in a distributed and localized way also should be mentioned. Howard C. Berkowitz 19:05, 29 May 2010 (UTC)

Idea of renewable energy -- superset, subset, disjoint?

Perhaps in the early part of the article, we might discuss self-power (e.g., photovoltaics on a satellite or traffic light), local power (biomass for a factory) and cogeneration/grid electrical feed.

Thinking about some examples, I'm not sure they are "renewable energy" or not.

• Plutonium breeder reactors -- I think they are, although the proliferation risks make them infeasible
• Hydrogen fuel generator using water as feedstock, but perhaps a Very High Temperature Reactor to thermally or electrolytically crack the water. The water is renewable, the heat source might or might not be.

Howard C. Berkowitz 01:55, 30 May 2010 (UTC)

I think those ideas are definitely a disjoint ... and not what most people think of as renewable energy.Milton Beychok 02:23, 30 May 2010 (UTC)

Then I think we need to be clear, since many people would regard water feedstock as renewable and ignore the energy required to produce the feedback. Let's face it -- "energy" is often a buzzword. Remember the people that ran around saying "ecology now!" When had ecology stopped?

Is the proper title, giving scope here, non-fossil fuels? Fuels from closed loops? I honestly don't know. Lots of people seem to think of hydrogen-fueled vehicles as using renewable fuel. Howard C. Berkowitz 06:08, 30 May 2010 (UTC)

Howard, it is almost midnight and I am quite tired. So keep that in mind, if I sound a bit intemperate. The article clearly states in the first two sentences what renewable energy includes ... and I see no reason to go beyond that. Yes, water is indeed renewable via a "natural process" but producing hydrogen from water is not a "natural process". Nor is producing hydrogen by steam-methane catalytic reforming a "natural process". Any method of producing hydrogen that I am familiar with involves the use heat energy or electricity. Yes, "renewable energy" is somewhat of a buzzword but that is no reason to extend it to include hydrogen-fueled vehicles. Solar power, geothermal power, windpower, biomass power, hydropower are all renewable by natural processes and are realities, albeit they are currently a long way from significantly reducing our dependency on fossil fuels. But I see no reason to explain why the article does not include hydrogen fueled vehicles. Milton Beychok 07:05, 30 May 2010 (UTC)

Let's assume you are correct. Then, what is the appropriate hierarchy?

• Energy [policy?]
  • Renewable energy
  • Alternative energy (hydrogen in my example definitely, perhaps plutonium)
  • Fossil energy

Incidentally, you may remember the precise term for a water power technique, where the main mechanisms can either act as a pump or turbine. During conditions of low electrical demand, they pump water back into the reservoir to gain gravitational potential energy. This has a specific name that I don't remember; it seems renewable, though. Howard C. Berkowitz 13:32, 30 May 2010 (UTC)