Talk:W. G. Grace

	NOTICE, please do not remove from top of page.
	Please note that I brought this here from another site and that this version was primarily the one I personally developed. It has been subject to further changes since it arrived on CZ to the extent that is now 99% my own work. I had considered rewriting it from scratch but that seems increasingly unnecessary. John (talk) 19:58, 16 September 2019 (UTC)
	Check the history of edits to see who inserted this notice.

CZ naming conventions

Hi, John, glad to see you being as industrious as 7 or 8 bees!

We do argue about this from time to time, but there is a general consensus (also spelled out somewhere in the guidelines) that for a name like this it is written, particularly in the article's title Initial dot no-space second initial dot space Last Name. Take a look, for instance, at P.G. Wodehouse, a fine Brit! (There are other examples, but I'll have to track them down if you want me to.) Hayford Peirce 03:39, 16 March 2010 (UTC)

Hi Hayford. I've no problem with the convention and I'll use it in future. All part of the learning curve.  :-) --John Leach 03:44, 16 March 2010 (UTC)

This isn't actually engraved in stone, but it seems to be the consensus. Glad to see that we have new articles to talk about! Hayford Peirce 05:00, 16 March 2010 (UTC)

It is not spelled out in the CZ guidelines and there is no CZ style guide, although moving to adopt spaces between personal initials was discussed as a naming convention [1]. Oxford Style Guide specifically states there should be a space between initials, Chicago Manual of Style states there should be equal space between both the initials and surname. Meg Ireland 23:42, 16 March 2010 (UTC)

I might myself prefer Z.Q.Splerdge or Z. Q. Splerdge to the present Z.Q. Splerdge, but on my archived talk page (which for some reason insists on being too large for the screen) Hayford pointed out that previous examples had the one central space. This echoes the appearance of two-word names, but looks unbalanced compared with ZQS or Z.Q.S. Perhaps we do indeed need some official guidelines. Ro Thorpe 00:39, 17 March 2010 (UTC)

A guideline like that is something that falls within the purview of the Editorial Council (EC). Regardless of how it looks, if two style guides that have been around longer than CZ and used by more publications, are saying there should be a space, I would sooner side with the style guides. Meg Ireland 00:43, 17 March 2010 (UTC)

the Babe Ruth of cricket

Hi, John, that's some article you're writing! When it's completed, I'll read the entire thing. Sounds to me like Grace was a combination Babe Ruth, Bill Tilden, and Bobby Jones of cricket. Only maybe even more so. I did a google search for Babe and Grace and turned up this: "Was The Bambino as much of a flagrant cheat as W.G.? Grace's contempt for the Laws of cricket whenever they were against him is the stuff of legend in cricket-playing nations. Posted by Stuart at October 18, 2008 08:34 PM" Is this a legitimate comment, or just Internet madness? Cheers! Hayford Peirce 18:21, 26 March 2010 (UTC)

Hi Hayford. It is a legitimate comment. WG was infamous for his gamesmanship and you would need another very long article to accommodate the fund of stories about him. One famous player said of him something to the effect that, while he wouldn't actually accuse WG of going outside the Laws of Cricket it is amazing what he can achieve within them! Even worse was the hypocrisy of an "amateur" who made more money out of playing cricket than any professional. He was a flawed genius, an idol with feet of clay. But, oddly, he seems to have been universally viewed as a "lovable rogue" rather than an out-and-out villain. --John Leach 06:31, 27 March 2010 (UTC)

Interesting! I'd love to read about the gamesmanship. He sounds, overall, a lot more like Big Bill Tilden than Babe Ruth in terms of character and personality.... Hayford Peirce 16:07, 27 March 2010 (UTC)

Bearing in mind he had to pay a locum when he was playing, did he make a large "profit"? Peter Jackson (talk) 09:38, 23 November 2018 (UTC)

He certainly looks like an unpleasant person in his photos

I initially wanted to check out how long his beard was (hard to imagine Babe Ruth or Ty Cobb with long, long beards) and came across all these images. I don't think I've ever seen a picture of the mighty Babe in which he didn't look quite pleasant. Cobb was another story entirely, but even he managed a smile from time to time. Grace seems to be set into a permanent snarl.... Hayford Peirce (talk) 23:01, 21 November 2018 (UTC)

WG played to win. Simple as that. Off the field, he was a really nice man with a great and almost childlike sense of humour. A big family man too. As a doctor, he was over half a century before the NHS and should have charged all his patients, but he only charged the ones who could afford healthcare. On the field, he was absolutely ruthless and took gamesmanship to the limit because losing was something he just could not bear to experience. He was two people. John Leach (talk) 23:20, 21 November 2018 (UTC)

Sounds like a perfect amalgam of Ruth and Cobb. Except that Ruth, the genial, lovable one, was a mediocre family man at best, and was, in other fields, not much above the bare literacy level. Cobb, whom Ruth supplanted as being considered the greatest player ever in baseball, was, like Grace, also the most RUTHLESS player (no pun intended) who has ever played, even to this day. Winning was the only thought he ever had. Hayford Peirce (talk) 01:11, 22 November 2018 (UTC)

My understanding is that, before the NHS, it was standard professional ethics to overcharge the rich and subsidise the poor. Peter Jackson (talk) 09:36, 23 November 2018 (UTC)