Talk:Crime fiction/Catalogs/Prominent writers

The {{subpages}} template is designed to be used within article clusters and their related pages.
However, it cannot function on sub-subpage talk pages..Please continue discussion at Talk:Crime fiction, or return to the Prominent writers subsubpage.

Does Ian Fleming count as a mystery writer? I always thought of him as a suspense/action writer. James Bond movies I don't think are really mysteries.--Robert W King 09:36, 11 June 2007 (CDT)

Good question -- well, he's certainly well known; I suppose the question comes down to "classic" mystery writers (Conan Doyle, Christie, etc.) vs. "mystery thriller" or "spy" novelists. I'm not sure what purpose this list is meant for, but since it's just a catalog I guess it can be fairly inclusive! Russell Potter 09:49, 11 June 2007 (CDT)

Additionally, I agree with your questioning of this lists' "purpose"--why, exactly, do we have this entry?--Robert W King 09:50, 11 June 2007 (CDT)

Evidently Larry S. likes lists, which he calls catalogs, and encourages them. Stephen Ewen changed my Prominent Tennis Players to Catalog of prominent tennis players. I have looked at the existing Catalog of famous philosophers and see what is going on there. But I don't understand where the info on Socrates comes from. If you go to Edit, all you see is a {{Socrates}thingee, with NO text! Where does the text come from?! I think that if this (non-Socratic) method, hehe, were applied, say, to Catalog of Mystery Writers, I would simply have Name, Dates, Place of Birth & Death, Nationality, Type of Books (thriller, cosy, espionage, etc.), Most Famous Work, Interesting Trivia (Agatha Christie once had an amnesiac period and famously disappeared for a couple of weeks), Most Famous Detective, Etc. The same thing could be done for the Catalog of prominent tennis players, with Best Stroke, Major Victories, World No. 1 Ranking, What Year, etc. etc. What are your thoughts on this, and HOW is it done?! Hayford Peirce 11:08, 11 June 2007 (CDT)

Well, Larry may be fond of them, but I have no idea what why they're here as independent entries. If, for instance, you search for "Mystery" or "Mystery writers," you get this catalog -- hmm! But where is the entry on Mystery writing as a genre?

The only use I can see for these is as interim filters, enabling those who search for a subject on which we don't yet have an overarching entry to see a few articles which would be related to the main entry if there were one. So, to my mind, the sooner we have a main entry on Mystery (literary genre), or whatever we end up calling it, the better -- this list can then be part of that main entry. Russell Potter 11:28, 11 June 2007 (CDT)

I agree with you, I think. But have you checked out the Catalog of famous philosophers? Take a look at that, please, then tell me what your thoughts are. I can see, I *think* the possibility of having both a Catalog, in some sort of stylized form, AND the mystery article, AND individual FULL articles about each author. It would just be three difference ways of approaching Agatha Christie, say. Hayford Peirce 11:32, 11 June 2007 (CDT)

Please see this forum board--something I hope we'll start more formally this summer. --Larry Sanger 11:30, 11 June 2007 (CDT)

Also, cf Religion and catalog of religions. --Larry Sanger 11:32, 11 June 2007 (CDT)

I remain skeptical of the value of such catalogs and lists -- though I agree, if we had such lists as well a main entry and individual entries, then they might indeed have a complementary value. The search engine should be modified somehow, though, to show searchers that catalogs or lists are just one type of entry; I'd be concerned if someone came to CZ looking for an encyclopedic entry, found only such a list, and thought that it was all we had! 11:52, 11 June 2007 (CDT)

Okay, at least with the catalog of religions I can *see* where the text is coming from. And I can see that I could do the same thing with, say, my catalog of prominent tennis players. With a link from each name on the list to the *article* about the individual player. But can you direct me to a spot that tells me where the Socrates info comes from? Thanks. Hayford Peirce 11:51, 11 June 2007 (CDT)

Well, I think that on the *catalog* page there should be a link to the *fuller* article, as well as a NOTE or something saying: "this is just a brief synopsis, see so-and-so for a fuller article." Hayford Peirce 11:52, 11 June 2007 (CDT)

Categorization

Now, I'm all for making catalogs and for paying attention to pop culture writers, but lumping all these folks together under the heading of "mystery writers" is kinda insulting to all of the great crime fiction writers out there! Where are we going to put David Goodis? What are we ever going to do with Cornell Woolrich? And where oh where are we going to put Donald E. Westlake's Parker series?

In keeping with the vaunted professionalism of Citizendium and my own big tent tendencies, I propose renaming this list 'Catalog of prominent crime fiction and mystery writers.' We could go the other way, of course, but to my ear, having 'mystery' first does not sound as nice (I do not have strong feelings about this). This isn't to say that we couldn't use a narrow catalog of prototypical mystery writers, as well as a list restricted to hard-boiled and crime fiction authors, and of course nuanced articles discussing the evolution of each genre... (*sigh*; someday)

As it is now, though, I feel like this page is a pleasant mishmash, and it would be nice if we could change the title to reflect that. Thanks, Brian P. Long 18:22, 3 March 2008 (CST)

I don't know what we're going to do with poor Ian Fleming, though. :( Brian P. Long

Geezers like me grew up in the days in which there were "mysteries" in the U.S. and "thrillers" in England, and those terms were all-inclusive, putting, say, both Agatha Christie and Raymond Chandler into the same category. But people are smarter today. To change it to "Crime fiction and mysteries" would be fine by me. Since there are generally crimes in *all* spy fiction, Ian Fleming and Mr. Calder and Mr. Behrens, which I wrote, will fit in with no trouble. Remember, such places as the NYT review spy fiction in their "Crime Fiction" column or whatever they call it. It's like arguing about what science fiction is, how it differs from fantasy, different genres of S.F. etc. etc. If that amuses you, go ahead and do it -- but there's no real answer to it. Same here.... Hayford Peirce 19:44, 3 March 2008 (CST)

Move to catalog subpage please

Could one of the main authors of this article move it to Mystery writer/catalogs please? David E. Volk 18:13, 17 July 2008 (CDT)

Shouldn't it be plural? Mystery writers/catalogs? Should catalogs be plural? Hayford Peirce 19:24, 17 July 2008 (CDT)

Should be moved. Crime fiction/Catalogs? (with links from "Detective story" and "Mystery novel"). Peter Schmitt 22:41, 10 October 2009 (UTC)

My head hurts when I think about "catalogs". Larry is the guy who insisted on them a couple of years ago -- let him figure out what to do with them! Hayford Peirce 22:46, 10 October 2009 (UTC)

That means waiting .... how long?  :-) Peter Schmitt 23:09, 10 October 2009 (UTC)

Oh, until you reply to this. Shall I Move it to Crime fiction/Catalog or Crime fiction/Catalogs or what exactly? Hayford Peirce 23:27, 10 October 2009 (UTC)

The standard name for the subpage is "Catalogs". I could do the move, but you may have a better idea for the title of the main page (which probably does not exist): Crime novel? Crime literature??. But I don't think that it should contain "writer". Peter Schmitt 23:40, 10 October 2009 (UTC)

Oh, only the main and the talk page should be moved, not the cluster (the orphaned rest, including the redirect should be deleted, I think.) Peter Schmitt 23:45, 10 October 2009 (UTC)

The main page? You mean the Main Article that doesn't yet exist (see all the Talk-talk above)? Why not just Crime fiction? That encompasses everything, I think. If this is OK, why don't you do the Move etc? I've gotta put on my feet and go for my evening walk before it gets too dark -- it's suddenly getting dark fairly early.... Hayford Peirce 23:48, 10 October 2009 (UTC)