Talk:British English

Northern Irish English: British or Irish?

The section on Northern Irish English suggests "whether Northern Irish English is also British English is a matter of perspective."

I am uncomfortable with this statement. To me, it smacks of the old political debate with regard to labelling of things in Northern Ireland as Irish or British, which isn't really relevant. It also ignores the fact that English, as spoken in Northern Ireland, is both British AND Irish. English here is influenced heavily by Gaelic, by Victorian and pre-Victorian English, by modern English and modern American-English through culture media and contact, and by English as spoken in Scotland some centuries ago.

It should also be pointed out that, like Scots, Ullans or Ulster-Scots has a similar dispute with regard to its status as a language or a dialect.

Yes, linguistically, English in Northern Ireland has roots that are both Irish and British, but 'British English' is also a political concept, referring to any varieties of English spoken in the UK. ('Jafaikan', as it's disparagingly known, is also British English, despite being unfamiliar to many Britons.) We need to distinguish between cultural/political definitions and linguistic ones. Politically, how do people in Northern Ireland think of English? I suppose it depends on politics. Would they go with NI English as a form of 'Hiberno-English'? Probably not. John Stephenson 16:05, 9 January 2011 (UTC)

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Also, I would question the wisdom of excluding English as spoken in the Republic of Ireland (in the form of 'Hiberno-English') from 'Commonwealth English'. Hiberno-English continues to be spoken in Northern Ireland and one part of Ireland simply leaving the political institution of the Commonwealth does not render its influence and similarities invalid, or make Hiberno-English suddenly have no influence from or connection with Commonwealth English.

Hiberno-English cannot be considered, in one political jurisdiction, part of Commonwealth English while the very same dialect, as spoken in another political jurisdiction, not part of Commonwealth English. Of course, I understand that there may be some people who might not like to be associated with the Commonwealth, but that is not necessarily this encyclopaedia's concern.

This last question is relevant obviously to the article on Commonwealth English also. --Mal McKee 15:05, 9 January 2011 (UTC)

We can't label English in the Republic of Ireland as 'Commonwealth English' because the term is basically political, covering many varieties of English that are used in the countries of the Commonwealth. The fact that varieties of English either side of the border are near-identical merely reflects the fact that what linguistically would be the same language or dialect is often labelled differently by different groups (e.g. Norwegian and Swedish are largely mutually intelligible, but are regarded as different languages through having different cultures and histories). Another example: there are U.S. English dialects which are much closer to British and Irish English than the mainstream (especially in New England and, believe it or not, African-American Vernacular English or 'Ebonics'), but we would never label them 'Commonwealth English' or 'British English'. The article does point out that the UK and Ireland share spellings, for example, and that 'Commonwealth English' is an inadequate term in this respect. John Stephenson 16:05, 9 January 2011 (UTC)

Above copied to Talk:Commonwealth English. John Stephenson 16:05, 9 January 2011 (UTC)