Talk:Association football/Archive 1

Why move

Why did you just move this without discussion? No one associates Soccer with "Association Football" --Robert W King 15:06, 26 January 2008 (CST)

I agree. This needs to be discussed. Review Naming Conventions: articles should live at the most common (correct) names for topics, not necessarily at their most "official" or "legal" names.

I'd suggest someone move it back, then discuss. Consult Wikipedia on this one; they probably have a sensible solution. --Larry Sanger 15:09, 26 January 2008 (CST)

May I be allowed to respond to the question before it is summarily "moved back"?

I'll try again. This is what I wrote before I discovered the "instant redirect".

In England and everywhere except North America, the sport is known as football. It is only known as soccer in North America where it is a minority sport; whereas elsewhere it is the major sport on the planet. Given that Citizendium is US-orientated, it seems sensible to split the divide between football and soccer by reference to the official name of the sport. To say that no one associates soccer with Association Football is I'm afraid very wide of the mark in world terms: it is called football worldwide and it is generally understood to be Association Football, which distinguishes it from the Australian, Canadian, Gaelic, Rugby and American variants. --John Leach 15:21, 26 January 2008 (CST)

John, the article was moved back because I asked that it be moved back; that's all. I then asked that the issue be fully and politely discussed, which we're now doing, I'm happy to see. (Although I'm not so happy about the apparent acrimony here. Please review CZ:Professionalism, all.) --Larry Sanger 12:17, 27 January 2008 (CST)

Accoring to the naming conventions, however, if there are other instances of "Football" that are not the same as "Soccer" or "American Football" then it should probably named as such: "Football (derivation)". Example, Football (American), Football (soccer), Football (Gaelic). However, please note that there already is a Gaelic football which describes the differences already. Despite the fact that we are largely US-oriented, we still take into account considerations from worldly perspectives. For example, if you noticed on /Metadata pages, we have a "Variant" field which suggests articles can be written in American English, British, Australian etc... --Robert W King 15:24, 26 January 2008 (CST)

Robert, surely you know that we do not intend to be "largely U.S.-oriented," as you claim we are. I simply want to make clear that we are not "U.S.-oriented" in any sense whatsoever, at least not intentionally. We are English language-oriented. --Larry Sanger 12:11, 27 January 2008 (CST)

Wait, I did say that. I think I was thinking "English oriented" and said "US oriented" by mistake. --Robert W King 12:14, 27 January 2008 (CST)

Just to follow up on Larry's suggestion to check WP, the article is named Association Football, with Soccer redirecting to it. Also, Gaelic football doesn't explain the differences of anything, it just points out what rules it took from soccer and rugby. --Todd Coles 15:29, 26 January 2008 (CST)

Additionally I'd like to mention that we have Football as a disambig page. --Robert W King 15:42, 26 January 2008 (CST)

Football is a disambig page because there are at least the six main variants I've listed above. But this variant is called Association Football in British English. The sport originated in England and remains the national sport of both England and Scotland, from where it has become the national sport of most countries in the world. Americans may choose to call it soccer but that is not what the rest of the world calls it. By suggesting football (soccer) as the name of the article, you are taking the American view and football in the US is a minority sport. In GB it is called football and nothing else: the German word is Fußball, the Spanish word is Futbol and nearly all other countries where it is the national sport follow suit. An exception is Italy, which had an early form of the sport called "calcio" (to kick), and this name has stuck. --John Leach 16:03, 26 January 2008 (CST)

And Todd is absolutely right on both counts. --John Leach 16:06, 26 January 2008 (CST)

My reasoning for keeping it at Football (soccer) is this: we have a redirect at Soccer to this article; additionally, at Football it is listed as "Association Soccer" that redirects to here anyway. Since this title covers both known terms (football and soccer), it sufficies for both American and other wordly english-speaking audiences. Additionally, if one were to use the "Search" function for football, you'd get the disambig page *anyway*. Even though the "technical term" may be Association Football, I'd be hard pressed to find many people around the world that actually call it that as opposed to just plain-jane "football". This is the "two-birds, one-stone" solution which I think justifies it's place. --Robert W King 23:59, 26 January 2008 (CST)

I would rather have all them examples redirect to association football. Take it from a man who has played it from as young as he can remember, we never call it 'soccer'. That is entirely an American phenonoman. Denis Cavanagh 07:10, 27 January 2008 (CST)

At the Football disambig page it is listed as Association Football not "Association Soccer"; and just because there is a redirect from Soccer to this article does not mean the redirect is correct. It is because there are other games known colloquially as football that disambiguation is required. An American searching for football is almost certainly looking for gridiron; an Australian might be looking for either Rules or RL; while a British person is almost certainly looking for football as in short for Association football. Without the other forms of football, the title of the article would be simply Football. But because a measure of disambiguation is necessary, the title has to be the full name Association Football. "Soccer" is like a nickname and (in the case of a person) unless a nickname is universally used instead of his real name (e.g., Pele), the title of the article must be his real name. Soccer is not universally used. About the only places where it is widely used are Australia and the USA, in both of which it is a minority sport. Like Denis, I played football from being a small child and we never called it soccer. --John Leach 07:50, 27 January 2008 (CST)

Even though your first sentence is bogus logic, I have considered bringing up the point for Americans that American Football should probably live at the page Football (NFL) or NFL Football. In any case having Football as a disambiguation page is the solution that seeks to be the common denominator (that there are many uses for the word "Football") and satisfies all those cases. --Robert W King 11:48, 27 January 2008 (CST)

I agree with nearly everything John says, but still agree with Robert that 'Football {what we call it} (soccer) {what those for whom it is a minority sport call it}' is the simplest & most elegant solution. Ro Thorpe 11:09, 27 January 2008 (CST)

Dennis, there is no "Broad agreement" on the move. --Robert W King 11:51, 27 January 2008 (CST)

For what it's worth, I have just created a "catalogs" page under the Olympic Games article which contains a list of catalogs of Olympic medalists in _______ (insert name of sport). In the listing, I used the name Football for what is called soccer here in America. Football is the official IOC name for the sport. That may or may not be a reason to consider in naming this page, though. I certainly think that is the name (perhaps with soccer in parentheses) which should be used in reference to the Olympics, since it is official there. James F. Perry 11:11, 27 January 2008 (CST)

Text here was removed by the Constabulary on grounds of civility. (The author may replace this template with an edited version of the original remarks.)

Text here was removed by the Constabulary on grounds of civility. (The author may replace this template with an edited version of the original remarks.)

Association Football is what it is called. There is across the board agreement here, with the exception of yourself. Never mind the fact that association football is the official name. Denis Cavanagh 11:56, 27 January 2008 (CST)

Dennis, please read the Talk page carefully. You and John are the only two that support moving to Association Football. Ro agrees that this solution is the best, and there hasn't been any other input. Regardless of "What it is technically called", sometimes simplest is best. --Robert W King 12:00, 27 January 2008 (CST)

I have personally never heard the "association" part of it, but that's not surprising. If we want to stick with the Football (type) naming convention, what about Football (Association) with a soccer redirect? That way the article is named in a way a majority of the English speaking world would understand it, but it will still get soccer's traffic. --Todd Coles 11:59, 27 January 2008 (CST)

In retrospect, I should have supported Todd's position, which incidently, I do now. --Robert W King 12:18, 27 January 2008 (CST)

Please don't ask me to read the page again when you clearly haven't read James' post. Denis Cavanagh 12:02, 27 January 2008 (CST)

Just because the IOC calls it that, doesn't necessarily mean it's the best solution for all parties considered and for "regular usage", whatever that happens to be in different countries. --Robert W King 12:04, 27 January 2008 (CST)

I have no interest whatsoever in joining in here (and I will not), but I would like to point out two obvious points. First, we don't all agree about what the name should be; that's why we're having the discussion. No legitimate argument can start from the premise "we all agree what the name should be." Second, "football" is the name given to what is arguably the most important sport in the United States, a country with some 300 million English speakers. Also, I don't see the relevance whatsoever (and never have) that other languages have cognate words (like German's fussball): the relevant question is what the word used among native English speakers, when speaking English. Since different words are used for the same thing, a compromise must be reached. I am stipulating that as Editor-in-Chief. Your task, which I encourage you to do as pleasantly and politely as possible, is to settle upon what the fairest compromise is.

If it becomes very clear that no compromise can be reached, I hope the contributors here will let me know, and I will decide what the next step will be. --Larry Sanger 12:04, 27 January 2008 (CST)

I reinserted Roberts comment. Don't see anything questionable in it. For my part, I will bow out. I support it being moved to Association Football, but I'll leave that particular good fight to others to resolve. Denis Cavanagh 12:08, 27 January 2008 (CST)

Denis, that was an edit conflict. However, a constable should be by to clean some of the above up soon.

Also, I'm disappointed that you don't wish to hammer out a compromise, Denis, or that you aren't interested in arguing that your position (Association Football) is an appropriate compromise (perhaps it could be supported as a compromise position). I'd like to impress upon you, and upon everyone reading this, how important reasonable compromise is as a policy for the health of a global, intellectually diverse project. --Larry Sanger 12:24, 27 January 2008 (CST)

For compromise purposes, the sensible solution is the one suggested by Todd to call the article Football (Association) with a soccer redirect. It follows that other articles should be Football (Australian Rules), Football (Rugby), Football (Gaelic), Football (American), etc.

By the way, "soccer" is believed to be derived from Association via its abbreviation Assoc. (which in England is pronounced "a sock"). --John Leach 01:42, 28 January 2008 (CST)

Positions and techiques

The whole article as it stands obviously needs expansion with several supporting articles to be started too (e.g., history, World Cup, European Cup). But this article itself needs some serious work on the techniques and positions sections in particular. It simply won't do, especially the bit about midfielders, and the reference to juggling is ridiculous. Do players juggle the ball in the MSL? They don't in the Premier League or Serie A or La Liga or the Bundesliga, where the game is very serious indeed. I'll try and work on this when time allows and get some good European and South American sources too. --John Leach 16:33, 26 January 2008 (CST)

I've edited the juggling bit - Ro Thorpe 17:16, 26 January 2008 (CST)

Association Football

Its only really called soccer in the US, and very sparsely elsewhere. It is one of (If not the most) widely played sports on the planet, and is usually referred to as simply 'football'. Since we cannot call it 'European' football like the Yanks would with their football game, we must call it 'Association Football', with which the majority of the world identifies it. Think in the broader, international context. Denis Cavanagh 18:08, 26 January 2008 (CST)

Please see the discussion above - Ro Thorpe 18:13, 26 January 2008 (CST)

Proposal

Proposal - move "Soccer"-style Football to Football (Association), with Soccer redirecting to it to maintain the naming convention style. Also updating the disambiguation page at Football to read accordingly. Because the Football disambiguation page serves as a way to distinguish different contexts of the word (for English-speaking audiences), anyone that searches for Football will be directed there regardless of what style of Football they are intending to find (all inclusive to the redirect instead of only some-inclusive).

Proposal Amendment - also in lieu of the fact that "Football" in the US means something specific, and because American-style Football is practically associated with the National Football League or NFL, recommend that American football get changed to NFL Football, given that worldly varients are also titled at CZ as: Gaelic football, Austrailian Rules football, and Canadian football as they are listed at the disambiguation page.

• I would be satisfied by Todd's suggestion that it be moved to Football (Association) with the appropriate Soccer redirect. Does anyone second? --Robert W King 12:20, 27 January 2008 (CST)

I disagree with "NFL Football". For the most part, the NFL and the CFL are the same thing, and Arena football is a variation of that. I feel like the three of those are similar enough to lump under either "American" or "gridiron". I am unaware what a majority of the English speaking world outside the US refer to our football is, but "American football" turns up more than "Gridiron football" does on a Google search, for what it's worth.

I do, however, agree with Robert that "football" will be the most commonly searched phrase for these sports, and that the disambiguation page is an acceptable method of pointing people in the right direction. --Todd Coles 12:48, 27 January 2008 (CST)

I agree entirely with Todd. Isn't the only problem what to call the page currently at Football (soccer)? If people want Association football instead, fine. Ro Thorpe 12:58, 27 January 2008 (CST)

I think it would also be a good time to standardize our naming convention for this. In other words, do we want all the articles to be called "Football (type)" or "Type football"? I don't have a strong opinion either way, but if I were to pick one it would probably be "Football (type)" for organizational purposes. --Todd Coles 15:07, 27 January 2008 (CST)

I officially don't have any position here, by the way; I'll be happy with any solution. I am mainly interested in seeing everyone as happy as mere compromise (if necessary) can elicit. --Larry Sanger 13:03, 27 January 2008 (CST)

I don't see anything wrong with American Football just as I don't see anything wrong with Association Football. Nevertheless that has been mentioned previously and it isn't a massive issue. And Regarding Larrys comment to me in the top section, my interests were to move it to Association Football and felt exhausted with (in my opinion) were weak reasons to keep it as Football (soccer) I genuinely don't care what its called as long as the reason for naming it whatever is sound. I also disliked the heavy handed tactics in moving the page back within seconds, and also in having it moved to football (soccer) in the first place. Denis Cavanagh 14:42, 27 January 2008 (CST)

Denis, I strongly take issue with the description "heavy handed tactics." That is simply incorrect. What happened was that someone changed the name of the page, without discussing it properly first. This struck me as improper, and hence I required discussion before the renaming. This strikes me as merely reasonable, not "heavy handed," of course. --Larry Sanger 19:26, 27 January 2008 (CST)

The next step is for someone with a cool, analytical mind to give us a more complete analysis and proposal, taking into account all of the discussion above (and below--Aleta had a few choice points). Simply saying "We should do A and B," when everyone has been discussing A-Z, does not really resolve the argument. We must lay out the various points of contention, explain how they are most rationally and fairly to be resolved, and out of that should come "the perfect compromise." I note also that the perfect naming scheme may not yet have been proposed. --Larry Sanger 19:29, 27 January 2008 (CST)

Ha, ha, ha....oh, dear!

The sound of the perhaps the oldest if not wisest football lover among you reading the comments. (For the record, anyone who asks *how* old will have a football kicked into his head.)

1. It is called football. Just football. Common people do not call it "Association Football", even though yes, that's what it is. Educated people call it Association Football when they're arguing about it.

2. Not only North Americans call it Soccer. Australians have the same insupportable habit.

3. Whatever you do, boys, you'll have to do something. The current state of redirects is shocking.

4. I don't see the problem with Football (soccer). That's what it is, after all: football, which some people call "soccer". Football (Association), with Soccer a redirect to it, is fine too.

5. [Association Football] makes little sense to me. Everyone follows the Association rules; no one calls it that. People in IFAB and FIFA just call it football. You could, as has been suggested, call it Football (Association) and call it Association Football in the text. Pretentious (?), but correct.

6. I strongly suggest that football be not merely a disambiguation page, but an article explaining the hows & whys of calling everything from gridiron to Aussie Rules "football".

Aleta Curry 16:11, 27 January 2008 (CST)

Hear, hear to Aleta's #6. --Larry Sanger 19:30, 27 January 2008 (CST)

I think the main problem is that no one place can lay claim to Association Football. American Football is NFL, Aussie Rules is Aussie Football... What else can you call Football? European Football? The first two winners of the World Cup was a South American team! Association Football, with all the relevant redirects seems like the single most logical response to all of this. Though it doesn't really matter what it is called as long as we know we are talking about football. I really don't see whats wrong with Association Football. Denis Cavanagh 16:41, 27 January 2008 (CST)

I don't understand your first sentence, Den, can you say that another way? Why is it a problem that no one place can lay claim to Association Football?

The only thing I see "wrong" with "Association Football" is that I don't see any evidence for this being an official title, rather, it seems to me that that is a convention educated people use when making a point about football played according to Football Association rules, which is not quite the same thing. (Or, even more often, when complaining [understandably] about Americans usurping a title used quite differently by most of the rest of the world.)

I do agree that what the article is called is much less important than everyone being on the same page with understanding what is being discussed in which article.

Aleta Curry 17:50, 27 January 2008 (CST)

Yes, Aleta, good point about Association, so we'll keep the title as it is, no?... - Also liked your point nº 6 earlier: that's a job for...well, not me. Ro Thorpe 18:05, 27 January 2008 (CST)

Just some food for thought here. I've been Googling like mad trying to find some sort of information on what the sport is called in different English speaking countries, with minimal luck. WP has some articles, but they are of course, lacking sources. I did, however, find the Football Association website and after doing a site search for the term "soccer" I was surprised to see 10+ pages of returns, including this one for "mini-soccer"[1]. I think the original objection to the current title of this article was because the word "soccer" is a colloquialism and only used in North America. I could be misinterpreting this, but it seems like the organization that sanctions the rules for football is quite alright with the word soccer describing the sport. --Todd Coles 21:23, 27 January 2008 (CST)

Hi Aleta,

Just to clarify, when I say one place cannot lay claim to Association Football, I mean it is not like the easily identifiable 'Aussie Football' 'American Football' or 'Gaelic Football'. The fact is that it is a truly international game, and the name should reflect that. Personally in an ideal world I would call it simply football, but since there are many other brands of football in an international encyclopedia, the 'official' name would probably be the easiest solution. Regards. Denis Cavanagh 05:01, 28 January 2008 (CST)

American football -- NFL vs. the rest

I suggest that those people proposing that an article be called Football (NFL) because most of American football is of the National Football League variety do some research first. There are probably 60 gazillion times more Americans who physically attend non-NFL games than those who go to NFL games. There are college games (among thousands of colleges), there are high school games (among ten of thousands of schools), and there are also various other games and leagues for youngsters. The college games in particular are sometimes watched, in person, by more than 105,000 people at a time, far more than any single attendance at an NFL game. The television ratings for some college games are nearly as high as those for NFL games, and, in some instances, higher. And I believe that more money is wagered (illegally, mostly) on college games than NFL games.

I myself would suggest, since we're all doing this:

• Football (American)
  • which would then have Football (American, professional) and Football (American, college and amateur) Hayford Peirce 21:27, 27 January 2008 (CST)

I think the breakdown between professional and amatuer is not needed. I think we could easily explain all we needed to about both in one article, unless you are envisioning something way more in depth. --Todd Coles 13:20, 28 January 2008 (CST)

New proposal

Here is my proposal for how we should move forward. I've read all the arguments and tried to come up with a compromise that everyone would find fair and logical.

In regards to the naming convention of all pages involving a sport named 'football, there seem to be two prevailing options.

• 1) All articles should be titled Football, with a more specific description following it in parentheses. ie Football (American)
• 2) The specific description, followed by football. ie American football

While both of these options would work, I think our best choice is option 1, because all of the sports are called "football" by their respective fan base. This also seems like a better organizational method, as all the articles will fall alphabetically together.

The hottest point of contention has centered around this particular article around the use of either the word "association" or "soccer" to best describe it. The official name of the sport is Association Football, although Soccer appears to be an acceptable term in several English speaking countries and can even be found on the Football Association website. As far as finding the most commonly used phrase in English speaking countries, I know of no way to accurately do that - and everyone here is most likely to use the term most familiar to them. The consensus seems to be on our other football articles, that they are named after their basic rule set - American, Aussie rules, Gaelic. Therefore, I propose we continue that trend here and name the article Football (Association), making sure that it is clear on the football disambiguation/general information page that this sport is also known as soccer, thus not confusing people who are unfamiliar with the term "association."

Also, it has been suggested that the football disambiguation page be expanded to include a brief summary of the different sports. This makes sense, as a reader can get a quick glance and the differences and the similarities of the different types of football before going to a specific article for more specific information.

--Todd Coles 13:15, 28 January 2008 (CST)

I, myself, have no objections. Although we'll need to clean up the excess redirects caused by this friendly scuffle. --Robert W King 13:19, 28 January 2008 (CST)