Talk:Schnitzel: Difference between revisions

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The schnitzel has a long an illustrious history that could date back to the seventh century of the Byzantine empire. The schnitzel is a famous dish from Austria although variations of this dish are eaten throughout Europe including Germany and Italy.  Kaiser Basileios (867 to 886 AD) liked eating his meat covered in gold which eventually lead to cutlets being cooked in bread crumbs. The bread crumbs were substituted to represent the gold leaf covered meat as a cost saving measure.
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The practice of preparing meat wrapped in bread crumbs spread throughout Europe where this dish was discovered in Italy by Austrian Joseph Graf Radetzky in the 1800s. The dish Radetzky discovered was known as “Costoletta alla Milanese” and was made from a thick slice of veal,  coated in bread crumbs, then sauteed in butter. 
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{{Image|Wiener Schnitzel Wien2005 8319.JPG|right|150px|Wiener Schnitzel.}}
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The '''schnitzel''' is usually prepared from a thin cutlet of [[veal]] although [[chicken]] or [[pork]] cutlets can be used instead of veal. Always cooked in butter or oil, the cutlet may or may not be [[sautéed]] as the cutlet may also be [[deep-fat fried]]. Variations of the schnitzel abound as this most famous recipe traveled throughout [[Europe]].
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Radetzky, served as commander of the Austrian troops from 1831 to 1857, shared the recipe with the Kaiser as part of his duties to report military, political and culinary affairs in Italy.
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==History ==
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After Radetzky shared the “Costoletta alla Milanese recipe, Austrian cooks perfected the recipe. Austrian cooks pounded veal until it was a finger-width thick, dipped the cutlets in flour, egg and bread crumbs. The cutlets were cooked in hot fat until golden. 
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The schnitzel recipe has a long and famous history that could date back to the seventh century of the [[Byzantine empire]]. The schnitzel is a famous dish from [[Austria]] although variations of this dish are eaten throughout Europe including [[Germany]], [[Italy]], and [[France]].
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<ref name="urlGerman Food Guide - Schnitzel">{{cite web
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The practice of preparing meat wrapped in bread crumbs spread throughout Europe where this dish was discovered in Italy by Austrian [[Joseph Graf Radetzky]] in the 1800s. The dish Radetzky discovered was known as “Costoletta alla [[Milan|milanese]]” and was made from a thick slice of veal,  coated in bread crumbs, then sautéed in butter.
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Radetzky, served as commander of the Austrian troops from 1831 to 1857, shared the recipe with the kaiser as part of his duties to report military, political and culinary affairs in Italy.
+
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After Radetzky shared the “Costoletta alla Milanese recipe, Austrian cooks perfected the recipe by pounding veal until it was a finger-width thick, dipped the cutlets in flour, egg and bread crumbs. The cutlets were cooked in hot fat until golden.<ref name="urlGerman Food Guide - Schnitzel">{{cite web
|url=http://www.germanfoodguide.com/schnitzel.cfm
|url=http://www.germanfoodguide.com/schnitzel.cfm
|title=German Food Guide - Schnitzel
|title=German Food Guide - Schnitzel
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}}</ref><ref name="urlGoogle Translate">{{cite web
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<ref name="urlGoogle Translate">{{cite web
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|url=http://translate.google.com/translate?js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&layout=1&eotf=1&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.gutekueche.de%2Fjournal%2Fartikel%2F36%2C2%2Fgeschichte-und-herkunft.html&sl=de&tl=en&act=url
|url=http://translate.google.com/translate?js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&layout=1&eotf=1&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.gutekueche.de%2Fjournal%2Fartikel%2F36%2C2%2Fgeschichte-und-herkunft.html&sl=de&tl=en&act=url
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== Ingredients and preparation ==
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{{Image|escalope_cooked.jpg|left|175px|A homemade schnitzel with its usual accompaniment of apple sauce.}}
Veal schnitzels are traditional but variations include cooking pork or chicken cutlets instead. The same technique is used as for veal.
Veal schnitzels are traditional but variations include cooking pork or chicken cutlets instead. The same technique is used as for veal.
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Schnitzels may also be prepared minus the breading an then they are known as au naturell or natur. 
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Schnitzels may also be prepared minus the breading an then they are known as au naturell or natur.<ref name="isbn0-517-50663-7">{{cite book
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<ref name="isbn0-517-50663-7">{{cite book
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|author=Gary, Joy; Schuler, Elizabeth
|author=Gary, Joy; Schuler, Elizabeth
|title=German cookery
|title=German cookery
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|doi=
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}}</ref>
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}}</ref><ref name="no ISBN Number Given">{{cite book
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<ref name="no ISBN Number Given">{{cite book
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|author=Wason, Betty
|author=Wason, Betty
|title=German cookery
|title=German cookery
|publisher=Doubleday and Company
|publisher=Doubleday and Company
|location=New York
|location=New York
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|year=2967
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|year=1967
|pages=
|pages=
|isbn=None
|isbn=None
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The Wiener Schnitzel originated from Vienna and is made from veal. This dish is often found at German restaurants too. 
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The Wiener schnitzel originated from [[Vienna]] and is made from veal. This dish is often found at [[German]] [[restaurant]]s too.<ref name="urlGerman Food Guide - Schnitzel">{{cite web
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<ref name="urlGoogle Translate">{{cite web
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| url = http://www.germanfoodguide.com/schnitzel.cfm
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| url = http://translate.google.com/translate?js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&layout=1&eotf=1&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.gutekueche.de%2Fjournal%2Fartikel%2F36%2C2%2Fgeschichte-und-herkunft.html&sl=de&tl=en&act=url
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| title = German Food Guide - Schnitzel
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| title = Google Translate
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| format = 
| format = 
| work = 
| work = 
| accessdate = 
| accessdate = 
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}}</ref>
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}}</ref><ref name="urlGoogle Translate">{{cite web
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<ref name="urlGerman Food Guide - Schnitzel">{{cite web
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| url = http://translate.google.com/translate?js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&layout=1&eotf=1&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.gutekueche.de%2Fjournal%2Fartikel%2F36%2C2%2Fgeschichte-und-herkunft.html&sl=de&tl=en&act=url
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| url = http://www.germanfoodguide.com/schnitzel.cfm
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| title = Google Translate
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| title = German Food Guide - Schnitzel
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| format = 
| work = 
| work = 
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Some ways to prepare schnitzels include Cheese Schnitzel where the veal cutlet is prepared as for Wiener Schnitzel. The cutlet is dipped in a half and half mixture of Parmesan cheese and bread crumbs. This dish is served with a lemon slice for garnish.
+
Some ways to prepare schnitzels include Cheese schnitzel where the veal cutlet is prepared as for Wiener schnitzel. The cutlet is dipped in a half and half mixture of Parmesan cheese and bread crumbs. This dish is served with a lemon slice for garnish.
-
Almond schnitzels have veal dipped in sour cream then almonds before cooking.
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Almond schnitzels have veal dipped in [[sour cream]] then [[almond]]s before cooking.<ref name="isbn0-394-40138-7">{{cite book
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<ref name="isbn0-394-40138-7">{{cite book
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| author = Sheraton, Mimi
| author = Sheraton, Mimi
| title = The German cookbook; a complete guide to mastering authentic German cooking
| title = The German cookbook; a complete guide to mastering authentic German cooking
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}}</ref>
}}</ref>
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Veal Cordon Bleu, Veal Parmigiana and Veal Scallop or Escalopede Veau Orloff all use similar cooking techniques as schnitzel. Veal Cordon Bleu has veal cutlets stuffed with prosciutto or smoked ham with Swiss cheese. The filling is sandwiched between veal cutlets, breaded and cooked in butter. Veal Parmigiana is prepared by breading the cutlets in Parmesan cheese and bread crumbs then sautéing the cutlets in clarified butter.  The cutlets are then served with a tomato sauce.  Veal Scallop has veal cutlets sautéed in clarified butter a soubise mixture of cooked rice, onions and mushrooms are sandwiched between the veal cutlets. The cutlets are then covered with a small amout of liver paste, sprinkled with brandy or dry sherry and then receive a sprinkling of Parmesan cheese. They are then baked until the cheese is golden.
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== Similar dishes ==
-
<ref name="isbn0-02-604570-2">{{cite book
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{{Image|escalope_uncooked.jpg|right|175px|A homemade schnitzel with its breading, waiting to be refrigerated, then cooked}}
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Veal cordon bleu, Veal parmigiana and Veal scallop or Escalopede veau orloff all use similar cooking techniques as schnitzel. Veal cordon bleu has veal cutlets stuffed with prosciutto or smoked ham with Swiss cheese. The filling is sandwiched between veal cutlets, breaded and cooked in butter. Veal parmigiana is prepared by breading the cutlets in Parmesan cheese and bread crumbs then sautéing the cutlets in clarified butter.  The cutlets are then served with a tomato sauce.  Veal scallop has veal cutlets sautéed in clarified butter a [[soubise]] mixture of cooked [[rice]], [[onion]]s and mushrooms are sandwiched between the [[veal]] cutlets. The cutlets are then covered with a small amount of liver paste, sprinkled with brandy or dry sherry and then receive a sprinkling of [[Parmesan]] cheese. They are then [[bake]]d until the cheese is golden.<ref name="isbn0-02-604570-2">{{cite book
| author = Becker, Marion Rombauer; Rombauer, Irma von Starkloff
| author = Becker, Marion Rombauer; Rombauer, Irma von Starkloff
| title = Joy of cooking
| title = Joy of cooking
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}}</ref>
}}</ref>
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One of the best recipes using veal or pork schnitzel is Jager schnitzel.  The cutlet is topped with a burgundy-mushroom sauce that may or may not be breaded.
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One of the best recipes using veal or pork schnitzel is Jager schnitzel.  The cutlet is topped with a burgundy-[[mushroom]] [[sauce]] that may or may not be breaded.<ref name="urlGerman Food Guide - Schnitzel">{{cite web
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<ref name="urlGerman Food Guide - Schnitzel">{{cite web
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| url = http://www.germanfoodguide.com/schnitzel.cfm
| url = http://www.germanfoodguide.com/schnitzel.cfm
| title = German Food Guide - Schnitzel
| title = German Food Guide - Schnitzel
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| accessdate = 
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==References==
==References==
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<references/>
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[edit intro]
Contents
[hide]
    * 1 History
    * 2 Ingredients and preparation
    * 3 Similar dishes
    * 4 References
(CC) Image: Rüdiger Wölk, Münster Wiener Schnitzel.
(CC) Image: Rüdiger Wölk, Münster
Wiener Schnitzel.
The schnitzel is usually prepared from a thin cutlet of veal although chicken or pork cutlets can be used instead of veal. Always cooked in butter or oil, the cutlet may or may not be sautéed as the cutlet may also be deep-fat fried. Variations of the schnitzel abound as this most famous recipe traveled throughout Europe.
History [edit]
The schnitzel recipe has a long and famous history that could date back to the seventh century of the Byzantine empire. The schnitzel is a famous dish from Austria although variations of this dish are eaten throughout Europe including Germany, Italy, and France.
The practice of preparing meat wrapped in bread crumbs spread throughout Europe where this dish was discovered in Italy by Austrian Joseph Graf Radetzky in the 1800s. The dish Radetzky discovered was known as “Costoletta alla milanese” and was made from a thick slice of veal, coated in bread crumbs, then sautéed in butter.
Radetzky, served as commander of the Austrian troops from 1831 to 1857, shared the recipe with the kaiser as part of his duties to report military, political and culinary affairs in Italy.
After Radetzky shared the “Costoletta alla Milanese recipe, Austrian cooks perfected the recipe by pounding veal until it was a finger-width thick, dipped the cutlets in flour, egg and bread crumbs. The cutlets were cooked in hot fat until golden.[1][2]
Ingredients and preparation [edit]
A homemade schnitzel with its usual accompaniment of apple sauce.
A homemade schnitzel with its usual accompaniment of apple sauce.
Veal schnitzels are traditional but variations include cooking pork or chicken cutlets instead. The same technique is used as for veal.
Schnitzels may also be prepared minus the breading an then they are known as au naturell or natur.[3][4]
The Wiener schnitzel originated from Vienna and is made from veal. This dish is often found at German restaurants too.[1][2]
Some ways to prepare schnitzels include Cheese schnitzel where the veal cutlet is prepared as for Wiener schnitzel. The cutlet is dipped in a half and half mixture of Parmesan cheese and bread crumbs. This dish is served with a lemon slice for garnish.
Almond schnitzels have veal dipped in sour cream then almonds before cooking.[5]
Similar dishes [edit]
A homemade schnitzel with its breading, waiting to be refrigerated, then cooked
A homemade schnitzel with its breading, waiting to be refrigerated, then cooked
Veal cordon bleu, Veal parmigiana and Veal scallop or Escalopede veau orloff all use similar cooking techniques as schnitzel. Veal cordon bleu has veal cutlets stuffed with prosciutto or smoked ham with Swiss cheese. The filling is sandwiched between veal cutlets, breaded and cooked in butter. Veal parmigiana is prepared by breading the cutlets in Parmesan cheese and bread crumbs then sautéing the cutlets in clarified butter. The cutlets are then served with a tomato sauce. Veal scallop has veal cutlets sautéed in clarified butter a soubise mixture of cooked rice, onions and mushrooms are sandwiched between the veal cutlets. The cutlets are then covered with a small amount of liver paste, sprinkled with brandy or dry sherry and then receive a sprinkling of Parmesan cheese. They are then baked until the cheese is golden.[6]
One of the best recipes using veal or pork schnitzel is Jager schnitzel. The cutlet is topped with a burgundy-mushroom sauce that may or may not be breaded.[1]
References [edit]
  1. ↑ 1.0 1.1 1.2 German Food Guide - Schnitzel.
  2. ↑ 2.0 2.1 Google Translate.
  3. ↑ Gary, Joy; Schuler, Elizabeth (1983). German cookery. New York: Crown Publishers. ISBN 0-517-50663-7.
  4. ↑ Wason, Betty (1967). German cookery. New York: Doubleday and Company. ISBN None.
  5. ↑ Sheraton, Mimi (1965). The German cookbook; a complete guide to mastering authentic German cooking. New York: Random House. ISBN 0-394-40138-7.
  6. ↑ Becker, Marion Rombauer; Rombauer, Irma von Starkloff (1975). Joy of cooking. Indianapolis: Bobbs-Merrill. ISBN 0-02-604570-2.
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The references were there why weren't they checked before accusing me of poor research. [[User:Mary Ash|Mary Ash]] 21:23, 8 August 2010 (UTC)
The references were there why weren't they checked before accusing me of poor research. [[User:Mary Ash|Mary Ash]] 21:23, 8 August 2010 (UTC)

Revision as of 16:34, 8 August 2010

This article is developing and not approved.
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To learn how to update the categories for this article, see here. To update categories, edit the metadata template.
 Definition:  Veal, pork, or chicken cutlets cooked in hot oil and generally breaded before cooking. [d] [e]
Checklist and Archives
 Workgroup category:  Food Science [Editors asked to check categories]
 Talk Archive:  none  English language variant:  American English

Thanks to Matt I used a reference tool maker

Thanks to Matt who kindly shared a reference tool maker I learned how to insert the references in the article tonight. I'm sure there are plenty of things wrong with my humble attempt but I am tired after spending about four hours researching and writing. Feel free to edit away! Thanks again Matt I sure do appreciate your help! Mary Ash 04:51, 8 August 2010 (UTC)

Your references looked pretty good. Just made some minor edits needed to get references to follow sentence-ending periods without any spacing between the period and the reference. And when there are two references at the end of a sentence, the second one should start immediately after the first one, again with no spacing between the two references. All in all, your references were very much better than previously in other articles.Matt's tool worked quite well. Milton Beychok 05:27, 8 August 2010 (UTC)
One other thing, Mary. All articles should have an introduction of some kind (even if just a few sentences) before the first section header (History, in this case). Milton Beychok 06:03, 8 August 2010 (UTC)
Excellent Mary! Haha, I'm impressed!!! Looks good!
The picture needs a the author's real name. I assume the one we have is a pseudonym. See if he'll give us permission using his real name. D. Matt Innis 19:28, 8 August 2010 (UTC)
Matt I added a new photo to the article based on my newly learned information. I spent awhile last night trying to find a "real" name but could not. This newest photo has a real name. The photographer has asked that he be emailed letting him know how the photo was used. I'll email him later today with a link to the article. Thanks for the compliments. I couldn't have done it without the reference tool you sent to help me. It really, really helped. Many thanks!Mary Ash 20:04, 8 August 2010 (UTC)
Good News! You are quite welcome. Keep an eye out for other reference makers, too. Some make it easier for magazines, or journals, etc. The picture looks good! D. Matt Innis 20:07, 8 August 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for the good edits Milt

Thanks for helping bring the article up to Citizendium style. I was in the kitchen making breakfast so I had to leave the ivory tower of writing for awhile. Thanks again for all your help.Mary Ash 16:59, 8 August 2010 (UTC)

Introduction

The introduction to a CZ article does not include a header (i.e., ==Introduction== is not needed). Also, the first sentence should include the article's title in bold font (i.e., schnitzel in this case). As you can see by looking at other CZ articles, that is our accepted style. I have already made those minor corrections for you. Milton Beychok 17:02, 8 August 2010 (UTC)

I knew about the bolding but I had to attend to household duties. As to the introduction, thanks for letting me know.Mary Ash 17:19, 8 August 2010 (UTC)

The topic of this article

Before this article is further developed there should be agreement on its topic: Is it "schnitzel" or "Wiener schnitzel"? Is it about the international (English-speaking) use of these food terms, or about the German (Austrian) meaning? A third article could be about the "original" Wiener Schnitzel. --Peter Schmitt 17:29, 8 August 2010 (UTC)

Origin (Radetzky)

To my own surprise, one of the first news I found when looking around was the discovery that the Wiener Schnitzel is not derived from the Costoletta alla Milanese. (I'm not sure if I have heard the Radetzky story before.) This requires more research.

One quite definitely advances one's knowledge when collaborating at CZ! --Peter Schmitt 17:37, 8 August 2010 (UTC)

If you check the reference links one German link (translated thanks to Google) and one German American web site both cite the Radetzky history. I'd appreciate further assistance, if needed, as I only eat schnitzel and they are very good. I'm also quite fond Spatzle and have been known to make some when the weather is cooler. Mary Ash 17:41, 8 August 2010 (UTC)
And Wikipedia, which I did not check, seems to agree with the Radetzky story. See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schnitzel. It would be interesting to see what you find out as I am sure it will help improve the article. Thanks! Mary Ash 17:44, 8 August 2010 (UTC)
Yes, Mary. I know that you did not invent the story, and I would have told you that it came from Milano, too. It was a surprise for me. (But I knew that I would have to check some books ... not yet done!) The pointer was on the German WP, though. --Peter Schmitt 17:47, 8 August 2010 (UTC)
Thanks so much! Much to my Dad's regret I never could learn to speak or read German. I am dependent your expert skills to make this article the best it can be. BTW family history says my ancestors came from PrussiaMary Ash 18:00, 8 August 2010 (UTC)

pictures

I have two homemade pix, one of the uncooked, one of the cooked. I'll put them in later today. Hayford Peirce 19:46, 8 August 2010 (UTC)

That will work! Did you just cook it? D. Matt Innis 19:58, 8 August 2010 (UTC)
Missed your message and I did had a new photo with hopefully the correct information. I made sure to find a photo with a real name attached. Mary Ash 20:01, 8 August 2010 (UTC)
That's it! I see he asked for an email, too. DId you send him one? D. Matt Innis 20:04, 8 August 2010 (UTC)
The picture that Mary put in is much too dark. And too large. I have reduced its size but left it there -- I will let others decide if my picture is superior. I will now put in a picture of an *uncooked* cutlet. Hayford Peirce 20:07, 8 August 2010 (UTC)
Mary's picture may be too dark, Hayford, (this can probably be changed with a picture editor), but it is the better picture. It shows a Wiener Schnitzel as it should be, with a lemon (I do not need it, but it is tradition) and potato salad. Apple sauce (you are thinking of Apfelkren, apple sauce with horseradish, for a Tafelspitz, I suppose) and the other items (peas, and what is that on the right?) are not at all usual. Moreover, the schnitzel is rather small and the coating does not look right. Sorry, Hayford :-) (This shows that I was right (see above) to say that we need articles on the true one, and one on all the others ... --Peter Schmitt 20:25, 8 August 2010 (UTC)

(unindent) Peter different folks eat food in different ways. Most, if not all, the schnitzels I made were not large. Although after looking through numerous Wikimedia Commons photos I discovered the schnitzels came in all sizes. I don't eat schnitzel much any more as it gives me heartburn. When I do eat schnitzel, it is Jager Schnitzel, which I love, with spatzle. Some people like it with egg noodles or potatoes. All a matter of taste. Mary Ash 20:32, 8 August 2010 (UTC)

That is just the reason why it is necessary to agree on the topic of this page. Is it on dishes internationally called schnitzel, or is it about a Wiener schnitzel (international), or a Wiener Schnitzel (the Vienna version that gives it its name)? --Peter Schmitt 20:40, 8 August 2010 (UTC)

Kaiser Basileios

No one in the 9th century was called a "Kaiser". Also, the story itself sounds nonsensical -- it definitely needs a footnote authenticating this assertion. Hayford Peirce 20:16, 8 August 2010 (UTC)

About what are you talking, Hayford? It seems I am missing something. --Peter Schmitt 20:28, 8 August 2010 (UTC)
About this statement: "Kaiser Basileios (867 to 886 AD) liked eating his meat covered in gold which eventually lead to cutlets being cooked in bread crumbs. The bread crumbs were substituted to represent the gold leaf covered meat as a cost saving measure." Are you telling me that a byzantine emperor was called "Kaiser"? And that he ate his schnitel covered in gold? If so, please give me a reputable source for this statement. Hayford Peirce 20:33, 8 August 2010 (UTC)
For your reference: The German is here: Basileios II. der Bulgarentöter (griechisch Basíleios Bulgaroktónos Βασίλειος ὁ Βουλγαροκτόνος, bulg. Василий българоубиец/Wasilij Bulgaroubiez; * 958 in Didymoticho; † 15. Dezember 1025 in Konstantinopel) war von 976 bis 1025 Kaiser des Byzantinischen Reiches. Seine Regierungszeit gilt allgemein als ein Glanzpunkt der byzantinischen Geschichte.

Inhaltsverzeichnis [Verbergen] 

   * 1 Leben
         o 1.1 Die frühen Jahre
         o 1.2 Kämpfe gegen Bulgaren und Behauptung im Osten
   * 2 Bewertung
   * 3 Anmerkungen
   * 4 Quelle
   * 5 Literatur
   * 6 Weblinks

Leben [Bearbeiten]

Or translated: Basil II of the Bulgarians slayer (Greek Basil Bulgaroktonos Βασίλειος ὁ Βουλγαροκτόνος, Bulgarian Василий българоубиец / Vasily Bulgaroubiez, * 958 in Didymotiho; † December 15, 1025 in Constantinople) 976-1025 emperor of the Byzantine Empire. His reign is generally considered a high point of Byzantine history. Contents [Hide] 

   * 1 Life
         o 1.1 The early years
         O 1.2 fights against Bulgarians and contention in the East

Which refers to the Byzantine emperor as a Kaiser in German. Hubby dearest, who loves Byzantine history is not here as he's out on an errand, but I'm sure he would agree with the terminology. I also found numerous independent sources all stating similar tales.

OR


Krieg und Kriegführung in Byzanz: Die Kriege Kaiser Basileios II. gegen die Bulgaren (976-1019) [Gebundene Ausgabe] Paul Meinrad Strässle (Autor) Noch keine Kundenrezensionen vorhanden: Schreiben Sie die erste! Preis: EUR 119,00 kostenlose Lieferung. Siehe Details. 

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It seems the German translation would include the term Kaiser. Kaiser means emperor and Baileios proves this out as he was Byznatine emperor or Kaiser.Mary Ash 20:53, 8 August 2010 (UTC)

I am not telling you anything. I never saw this statement (on this page). But it is told on German Food Guide and probably elsewhere. It is a legend like the Radetzky story. But there is more research needed before reasonable statements can be made. --Peter Schmitt 20:50, 8 August 2010 (UTC)
And for more references:

"Wiener" means Viennese (from Vienna) in German. As the name suggests, the Austrians are accredited with the creation of the Wiener Schnitzel. The Wiener Schnitzel was perfected by the Austrians to become the delicious dish known today by every German and found in most German restaurants. However, the origin of the Schnitzel actually goes back to the 7th century Byzantine Empire.

The story goes that the Kaiser Basileios I (867-886AD) prefered his meat covered with sheets of gold. And what he liked soon became popular with the wealthy. But, this practice became too expensive, so an alternative was created - "yellow gold" (bread crumbs).

Over the years, the use of bread crumbs in coating meat spread to neighboring lands. It was in Milan, Italy, in the 1800's where the Austrian Joseph Graf Radetzky discovered a dish called "Costoletta alla Milanese" - a thick veal cutlet, coated with bread crumbs, and sauteed in butter. Radetzky, who was commander over the Austrian troops in Italy (1831 to 1857), reported military, political, and even culinary information back to the Austrian Kaiser.

We are up to several INDEPENDENT references stating the history of the schnitzel. Three of those references include the term Kaiser and reflect back to the Byzantine Empire. The schnitzel evolved from gold leaf covered meat to the more affordable golden bread crumb crust for the masses to enjoy. I'm sorry but that's what the research says which was correctly referenced in my article. I welcome Peter to do research as he is closer to the source than I am. It's always easier to get information when it's near you. I'd love to read what he finds out. Mary Ash 21:08, 8 August 2010 (UTC)

"revert wars"

Mary, we do NOT have revert wars at CZ. I removed that statement once, and wrote about it on the Talk page. You have restored it without attribution or discussion. I am now removing it again, and if you put it back I will call for a Constable to examine your behavior. Hayford Peirce 20:35, 8 August 2010 (UTC)

There were numerous sources all stating similar things. Did you check the sources listed? Also, I have included an explanation on the talk page for you to read. Please read and check the sources before making unfounded claims. As to the constable go call him/her as I suspect they will find YOUR actions were not within Citizendium guidelines while mine were. Check your research please. Mary Ash 20:55, 8 August 2010 (UTC)
Mary, Hayford is a Constable, who has recused himself because he is also an Author on this article. Might I suggest he has more relevant CZ experience than you do, and your counterchallenge is not constructive?
When someone questions the sourcing of one of my statements, it is my obligation to respond with the relevant source, perhaps even putting that source on the questioned article. We aren't as insistent as WP on sourcing everything, especially when the author is demonstrably an expert in the subject. Nevertheless, saying "numerous sources" isn't much more specific than saying "Google it."
Unfortunately, my personal expert in Byzantine history is more concerned, at the moment, with rendering safe improvised explosive devices in Afghanistan; it will take weeks to get a reply.
I am really, really trying to be supportive in explaining our customs, so there is less conflict. Howard C. Berkowitz 21:14, 8 August 2010 (UTC)

To both Mary and Peter

If you are putting in legendary stories translated from other languages then you MUST provide references AT THAT POINT IN THE TEXT, ie, by putting in a footnote at the exact place that you make the assertion. Not just in some vague reference somewhere else.

As for Kaiser, in an article about Ancient Rome, would you refer to "Kaiser Caesar Augustus" because you were reading a source that was written in German. No, you would call him "Emperor".

As for reverting, I made a deletion of a very questionable item that had no clearly identified sources and I said why I was deleting it. You then instantly restored it without attribution or any discussion on the Talk page. This is what we call "revert wars" and, as you should know from your very first day here when you were involved with the UFO article, we do not permit them.

If you want to restore this item, then reword it so that it reads something like, "A charming, but improbable story relates that the Emperor so-and-so of Byzantine is said to have etc. etc.<Ref)put in here your sources, and tell us if they are in German, or what</Ref>." If you don't do it more or less like that, then you are simply putting in fairy tales.... Hayford Peirce 21:08, 8 August 2010 (UTC)

Hayford I haven't a clue about what you are trying to communicate. I have not reverted anything concerning the article after you started making edits to it. I did add two words: famous recipe. As this is a wiki, anyone at anytime, can add to an article. I could even remove text, if so desired as long as I stated what I removed on the talk page. I did not remove any text but I ADDED to it. Also, the "charming fable" as you call it was backed up with RESEARCH done in both German and English. I wrote a good article which you have proceeded to discount my numerous independent sources. I listed them correctly in the reference section. I also added sources to the exlinks this morning that were not used in the article but support what was written. So go check the sources again including the exlinks. You might learn something. BTW this is a good article, especially since Matt kindly shared a reference tool to create the ref links needed. At least he's trying to help me. How about you? I have contacted an constable for assistance based on your repeated harassment. Mary Ash 21:15, 8 August 2010 (UTC)

The Missed References

Hayward did not check the TWO independent references concerning his "fable". Below are the references I gave concerning the Kaiser and the history of the schnitzel. Straight from my original article: 

References

  1. ↑ 1.0 1.1 1.2 German Food Guide - Schnitzel.
  2. ↑ 2.0 2.1 Google Translate.
  3. ↑ Gary, Joy; Schuler, Elizabeth (1983). German cookery. New York: Crown Publishers. ISBN 0-517-50663-7. 
  4. ↑ Wason, Betty (1967). German cookery. New York: Doubleday and Company. ISBN None. 
  5. ↑ Sheraton, Mimi (1965). The German cookbook; a complete guide to mastering authentic German cooking. New York: Random House. ISBN 0-394-40138-7. 
  6. ↑ Becker, Marion Rombauer; Rombauer, Irma von Starkloff (1975). Joy of cooking. Indianapolis: Bobbs-Merrill. ISBN 0-02-604570-2.

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OR the comparisons from the original article to the one Hayford edited:

http://en.citizendium.org/wiki?title=Schnitzel&diff=100699057&oldid=100698635


Schnitzel From Citizendium, the Citizens' Compendium (Difference between revisions) Jump to: navigation, search Revision as of 04:12, 8 August 2010 (edit) Mary Ash (Talk | contribs)

The references were there why weren't they checked before accusing me of poor research. Mary Ash 21:23, 8 August 2010 (UTC)

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