Talk:Anschluß

Old intro

The previous introduction did not contain the basic information needed for this page. For the time being I moved the old intro to the bottom of the page. It needs to be rewritten and integrated into the main body of the page. --Peter Schmitt 01:56, 12 January 2011 (UTC)

The article certainly would benefit from expansion.

Peter, I'm sorry, but in this phrase "a new government was formed by Seyß-Inquart." 'Seyß' cannot be read by an English speaker, and consequently it is extremely distracting and off-putting to an English language reader. It needs to be rendered Arthur Seyss-Inquart (in German: Seyß-Inquart) or something similar; you handle this very well in the opening (Anschluss and Austria).

Aleta Curry 02:32, 12 January 2011 (UTC)

I absolutely agree from expansion, given that I started it specifically to support Nazi activities of the 1930s, not to be a complete history of the Austrian perspective. As an Austrian, Peter obviously has perspective that I don't. I encourage cooperative on the lede, although I would point out that while it was certainly an idea in Pan-German nationalism, English speakers probably know it best in terms of the completed acquisition of Austria by Germany.

Separately, I have started an article on Pan-German nationalism, which complements this since it will include 19th century influences. Again, I welcome collaboration.

Aleta's point on the German orthography is well taken. With my remaining fragments of high school German, which, whatever nasty people say, was not taken while Bismarck was becoming a political leader, :-), I can read it, but I can't directly type it since it is not part of the ISO/IEC 646 character set and not available on common keyboards. Die Hexe, or Frau Bender, my German teacher, never suggested it is pronounced differently than "ss". Is this true? If so, there is even less argument than diacritic vs. dipthong. Howard C. Berkowitz 03:23, 12 January 2011 (UTC)

Reorganization

Howard, I do not agree with your reorganization. The introduction is meant to give the basic information (as I tried to give it). Splitting this up into one-sentence paragraphs destroys this purpose. The body of the page may expand the basic information with details. On the other hand, in this form, remarks on Hitler's views and motivations do not fit into the introduction. --Peter Schmitt 10:14, 12 January 2011 (UTC)

It certainly was not my intention to leave those as one-sentence paragraphs, and I continue to add material. You are correct about the Hitler material in the introduction, but neither does it fit to put the failed 1918 attempt, as more than a summary, there. The 1938 actually happened, and I've tried to balance this.

No one-paragraph sections remain, and most will be expanded and sourced. Your introduction could suggest to a reader unfamiliar with the situation that the major event was 1918. Howard C. Berkowitz 11:00, 12 January 2011 (UTC)

The lede states that "Nazi Germany incorporated Austria, by force, as the Ostmark". I think it's important to acknowledge at the ouset that this appears to have had the overswhelming support of the Austrian people [1]; "by force" has the implication of military engagement, but I'm not aware that there was any active conflict. It was a bloodless coup d'etat by the Austrian Nazis, backed by Germany, followed by a plebiscite (probably rigged to exaggerate the undoubted strong support) , or wasn't it? It had the support of Austrian politicians and clergy Gareth Leng 10:19, 13 January 2011 (UTC)

You are right, there were no fights, and in my first version I did not use "forced", and only mentioned the troops entering Austria, but left it in now because it seemed to be important to Howard.

It is not wrong because the political pressure was backed by military power, but -- as you say -- it may be misinterpreted.

As to how strong the support by Austrian people was: That is difficult to decide and an issue debated by historians. There certainly was no open resistence, but the general view is, I think, that the March referendum would probably have rejected the anschluss (or there would not have been a reason to cancel it). --Peter Schmitt 11:16, 13 January 2011 (UTC)

It was Clemenceau, I believe, that said a language is a dialect with an army. There was far less threat of force in Austria than in Czechoslovakia, but neither was it absent. I would hesitate to call it a coup d'etat, since that is usually defined as a takeover by elements of the existing government. In this case, it was more a collapse of the existing government and a takeover by, at best, an opposition party with strong external backing. Still, I agree that many Austrians supported it--although probably not German-speaking Austrian Jews. I'm off in a few minutes for some cardiac scans, but I'll bring some monographs along and review the literature. More later. Howard C. Berkowitz 11:29, 13 January 2011 (UTC)

Pleased with discussion

I shall first mention that it is a real stress test to be forbidden coffee for 24 hours, get sedated, be driven to the office, and then be told "oh no, we don't have you on the schedule for today."

So, coffee is indeed a first priority before I go into much detail. I certainly will defer to others on the correct translation, as my residual German is...well, "Ein Bier, bitte." Perhaps we might get opinions from the other native or near-native speakers.

Anyway, I will provide more details on the specific Nazi actions, and I think I have some source data on Austrian opinion. More coffee. Howard C. Berkowitz 20:00, 13 January 2011 (UTC)

Reunion

Austria was part of Germany till 1867. There would have been quite a lot of older people alive in 1938 who still remembered that. Peter Jackson 11:38, 13 January 2011 (UTC)

Germany was not a country in 1867 and Austria not part of it: Austria (Österreich-Ungarn) was independent of Germany (Preußen).

But even if it were: "anschluss" does not mean reunion (not even union) or rejoining. ("Wiedervereinigung" is reunion.)

--Peter Schmitt 12:01, 13 January 2011 (UTC)

Depends what you mean by "country". Austria was part of the German Confederation, and before that of the Holy Roman Empire. Peter Jackson 12:05, 13 January 2011 (UTC)

Sure, if you say "confederation". "Germany" is something else. From the (Nazi) German perspective it was a reunion, and this is mentioned later. --Peter Schmitt 12:14, 13 January 2011 (UTC)

Well, won't you allow "Switzerland" to refer to Schweizerische Eidgenossenschaft? Similarly Germany.

Furthermore, even in terms of "country" in the sense of a politically unified entity, Austria was part of one from the Treaty of Verdun in 843 till it ceased to operate effectively as a unified entity in 1254. Peter Jackson 18:03, 13 January 2011 (UTC)

In fact, there wasn't even a state called Germany in 1938. It was Deutsches Reich. Peter Jackson 11:42, 14 January 2011 (UTC)

Peter, you address what is a nontrivial problem, which the EC might address -- assuming it is recognized to be something that can't be solved with 48 hours of discussion. Both the language and history of names ideally should have guidelines moving forward. Germany is a good case in point -- there is a long list of names that applied over time, over different geography. Who was it that said the Holy Roman Empire was neither holy nor Roman nor empire? Howard C. Berkowitz 15:04, 14 January 2011 (UTC)

Voltaire, though I don't know whether he was the first. Peter Jackson 16:23, 14 January 2011 (UTC)