Talk:Vipera berus

Article Checklist for "Vipera berus"

Workgroup category or categories	Biology Workgroup [Categories OK]
Article status	External article: from another source, with little change
Underlinked article?	No
Basic cleanup done?	Yes
Checklist last edited by	luke 23:42, 19 March 2007 (CDT)

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Removed on article cleanup

image = Vipera berus (Marek Szczepanek).jpg

image_width = 250px

[[Image:Hugorme.jpg|right|left|thumb|250px|''V. berus'': normal and melanistic color patterns.]]

[[Image:Viperaberus2.jpg|right|left|thumb|250px|''V. berus'']]

[[Image:Viperaberus1.jpg|right|left|thumb|250px|''V. berus'']]

[[Image:Vipera berus.jpg|right|thumb|250px|''V. berus'']]

{{Commons|Vipera berus}}

Comments from Peter Brezaitis

1) Vipera berus is a thick bodied snake relative to other species of snakes in Europe, however as compared to other species of vipers such as Bitis gabonica and Bitis Arietans it is a moderately thick bodied snake.

2)"Adults grow to 60 cm in length with an average of 55 cm. Maximum size varies per region. The largest -- over 90 cm -- are found in Sweden; specimens of 104 cm have been observed there on two occasions. In France and Great Britain, the maximum size is 80-87 cm.[2]" Is this important? The average size is important, the reference needs to be checked. If males are larger than females, and the size difference between males and females is important. Are the largest animals males or females" Were they sexed? Point is that there sexual dimorphism.

Peter has gone off now, will print out article and e-mail in comments which I will append. Nancy Sculerati 18:59, 22 April 2007 (CDT) PS- for "who is Peter Brezaitis?" see ISBN 0-8129-6790-9

Interesting fellow; he writes well, so let's hope he decides to help out! I'll add comments about body build and sexual dimorphism: with V. berus, the females are always relatively larger and heavier than the males (sexing snakes is not that difficult). As for mentioning the maximum size(s), why not? It's to give readers a clear indication of where reality stops and fantasy begins. The corresponding (in-line) references are always at the end of each sentence or paragraph. --Jaap Winius 20:08, 23 April 2007 (CDT)

He'll be making more comments, but his point about maximum size and geographic range is partly that we have to check that the same sexwas compared at different portions of the range, since females are large, so if females from one area are compared to males of another (or nobody checked the sex, they just recorded a few snakes' length) that the data is meaningless. He's a cool guy, he left me a copy of "You belong in a zoo"which I am reading now, it's not only a great book- it includes the folks that I studied under years ago. Nancy Sculerati 20:17, 23 April 2007 (CDT)

It's difficult for me to be sure that the size/sex information is correct; all I can do is take Mallow, Ludwig and Wilson's word for it (the authors of the book I used as a reference for that section). However, the average size of 50-60 cm, as well as the point that the males are generally smaller than the females, also corresponds with several other books I have. --Jaap Winius 04:50, 24 April 2007 (CDT)

Well, that's what happens when you get an expert! Peter kbnows that books can be wrong, and he (and I) both know that authors cite each other - and so in the literature things happen like somebody once collected some snakes of a certain species in one place that were mostly female, and in another that were mostly male, and -without sexing them- decided that there were size variations when actually the variations were in the gender collected. That fact gets published and then cited, so that 10 sources that confirm it are all citing the same flawed study, but often not even in a way that is obvious, because the latest source cites a previous review. Let's wait to see what else he has to say. Nancy Sculerati 06:07, 24 April 2007 (CDT)