Talk:Quantum mechanics

I categorized this as status "Developing" because, although there have been a couple of major revisions or additions (the "Effects" and "History" sections), the vast majority of the text is still a near-verbatim copy of the Wikipedia article. Bruce M.Tindall 16:25, 5 April 2007 (CDT)

Math?

There is a question how do we manage quantum mechanics articles, i.e. whether we put it under Math Workgroup or not. User:Jitse Niesen has just removed the math category. Consider however this post by User:Greg Woodhouse on forum.[1] I'm leaning to Greg's point of view. See also AMS classification on CZ:Mathematics Workgroup, quantum theory is a notable node. Any thoughts? --AlekStos 09:25, 16 April 2007 (CDT)

There are formulations of quantum mechanics that are most definitely on the border between physics and mathematics. The tradition starts with Weyl's book on Group Theory and Quantum Mechanics (1928), then von Neumann's famous book (1932) that contained lots of new math, and more recently Reed and Simon (1972), and Thirring (1979). Beyond my horizon is string theory which is almost only mathematics, although as I understand it, string theory is more than quantum theory (I'm told that it includes general relativity). I would say that quantum mechanics has enough mathematical content to put it in the math category as well. Further, Jitse will appreciate that people who apply quantum mechanics are heavy users of numerical mathematics, so also from that angle there is contact.

Another thing: who is mainly responsible for this article? Is it a CZ author, or is it straight from WP? In other words, if I would change things, on whose toes would I step? --Paul Wormer 09:18, 13 September 2007 (CDT)

Okay, I put maths back in.

The article is basically straight from WP. If you look at the history, you see that the first version has all the signs of a Wikipedia article (for instance, interwiki links to different languages) and that the difference between the version copied from Wikipedia and the current version is fairly small. I think nobody here will complain if you start afresh. -- Jitse Niesen 21:54, 13 September 2007 (CDT)

Mention on BBC blog

BBC journalist Rory Cellan-Jones admits he knows nothing about quantum mechanics, but it might be useful to know that as a layperson he finds the Wikipedia version of this article easier to read. This is another article identifying CZ's number of articles as a problem. John Stephenson 02:47, 1 April 2008 (CDT)

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Next sections moved here from Talk:Introduction to quantum mechanics.

Proposal

I propose that people that are knowledgeable about quantum mechanics list here topics that should be included in an article on quantum mechanics for the layperson. (Maybe that would be a better title of this article?). I hope that skilled (possibly, or even preferably, non-science) writers pick this up and make a readable, consistent, article out of it. If they slip or misunderstand something don't worry, that has happened to every learner of QM. --Paul Wormer 12:19, 1 April 2008 (CDT)

Recall we have a Student Level subpage that has not been utilized much yet. Such an article would live at Quantum mechanics/Student Level. One problem is I'm not sure we have really defined the role of this subpage, although I would think aiming it at the layperson should be the target. Chris Day 12:31, 1 April 2008 (CDT)

I was not thinking of students, but of journalists and of other interested adults that want to widen their horizon, but it could be useful to (non-physics) students as well. --Paul Wormer 12:38, 1 April 2008 (CDT)

Maybe we need to rename that subpage. It might be used more if it was more of an outreach article rather than aimed at students. After all what does student mean, it could refer to many different levels of expertise. Chris Day 12:43, 1 April 2008 (CDT)

Yes, I agree, "student" reminds one of college and exams. I was thinking of general education (more along the the ideals of Enlightenment). --Paul Wormer 12:51, 1 April 2008 (CDT)

Maybe it should be called something like, "Introductory" or "Prequisite". "Fundamentals"? Just tossing out ideas here. --Robert W King 12:54, 1 April 2008 (CDT)

"Introductory" is OK, "prequisite" smacks too much of school. --Paul Wormer 13:02, 1 April 2008 (CDT)

I'm going to disagree with you all and claim that since we are an encyclopaedia aimed at a general readership, Quantum mechanics itself should be the introductory article, and more specialist material should be elsewhere. J. Noel Chiappa 12:58, 1 April 2008 (CDT)

I disagree strongly, there is space for all of us under the sun, graduate level articles can be very useful, not only for grad students but also for undergrads, if only to show them that there is more to know. --Paul Wormer 13:02, 1 April 2008 (CDT)

I didn't say we shouldn't have a grad-level article ("more specialist material should be elsewhere"). J. Noel Chiappa 13:07, 1 April 2008 (CDT)

See the forum discussion here. I made a similar point. Chris Day 13:16, 1 April 2008 (CDT)

Perhaps we're doing it backwards? Maybe we need a Quantum mechanics and an Advanced Quantum mechanics? --Robert W King 12:59, 1 April 2008 (CDT)

Well, please consider that there are no other "introduction to" type articles in CZ, as far as I know, at least as main namespace articles. Also consider that CZ articles are supposed to be as accessible as a competent article on a topic can be made to our audience, i.e., university undergraduates. Therefore, our basic rules dictate that the article that lives at quantum mechanics should be an introductory-type article, if such an article is possible (I have no opinion on that).

Variant versions of articles, and other reference material, are supposed to be grouped together in clusters; that is the whole purpose of the Subpages system. Now, it's true that we have a tutorial type article planned for subpages; but an introductory article would not, I assume, be a "tutorial," it would be an introductory article. Moreover, it is unacceptable to me as Editor-in-Chief that we make an advanced article as the main article on this one topic, if a simpler, more undergrad-accessible article is possible.

Given all this, the solution seems simple to me: we invent a new subpage type: "Advanced" pages. These give an advanced or graduate-level (or postgrad-level) treatment of particularly complex topics. Then, if I understand correctly, the current quantum mechanics article would live at Quantum mechanics/Advanced, and the planned (but misnamed) "Introduction to quantum mechanics" article would live at quantum mechanics. Then, if anyone wants to introduce QM with problems, "tutorial"-style, that could live at Quantum mechanics/Tutorial. The latter is not necessary, of course. --Larry Sanger 13:14, 1 April 2008 (CDT)

See forums for similar point. Chris Day 13:19, 1 April 2008 (CDT)

Let us follow our EiC and rename "Introduction to quantum mechanics" to "Quantum mechanics" and the present "Quantum mechanics" to "Quantum mechanics/Advanced". Does one have to be constable to do that? --Paul Wormer 13:32, 1 April 2008 (CDT)

Content

Here we go again, talk, talk, talk. You guys, give rather your opinion about CONTENT --Paul Wormer 13:05, 1 April 2008 (CDT)

The problem is we have not solved the audience and home problem. This is a recurring discussion that has flared up again. What you are doing is right. Start and the edits will follow. I can't start as I'm clueless on the topic. I can tell you if you have it at the right level though. Chris Day 13:21, 1 April 2008 (CDT)

Historical approach?

An approach could be historical (I write this from memory, I'm without books):

1. Around 1890 physics is "finished", minor detail: UV catastrophe.
2. 1900 Planck solves UV catastrophe by quantizing the energy of harmonic oscillator (Insert here: explanation harmonic oscillator and its use in physical models).
3. 1905 Einstein proposes that light consists of virtual quantized oscillators to explain photoelectric effect
4. Around 1910 quantization lattice vibrations (Einstein Debye crystal)
5. 1913 Bohr atom
6. 1915 Old Bohr-Sommerfeld quantum theory
7. 1924 de Broglie: (very very light) particle shows wave properties (insert about waves)
8. 1925 Heisenberg, Born, Jordan: matrix mechanics (insert about matrices)
9. 1926 Schroedinger wave equations (time-independent, time-dependent), relation with matrix mechanics
10. 1926 Spin
11. 1927 Pauli exclusion principle, Heisenberg uncertainty relation. Non-relativistic QM essentially finished at this point in time.

--Paul Wormer 12:38, 1 April 2008 (CDT)

Sounds like a topic for another article to me: history of theory of quantum mechanics or something like that. --Larry Sanger 13:03, 1 April 2008 (CDT)

Could be used in a timeline! --Robert W King 13:04, 1 April 2008 (CDT)

If we had a lot of room and/or reader's time, I might agree with you. I love to read about science in a chronological fashion, because the growth in the minds of scientists, in understanding of the field, over time, is matched nicely (and produces) an equally growing understanding in my own mind.

However, we don't have that luxury - although I think such a time-oriented piece would be wonderful, perhaps at Development of quantum mechanics, or some such location.

I will go off and try to create the text of the intro paragraphs, and you can see if my goal of 'quantum mechanics for the masses in 3 minutes' is reachable. (I'm something of a believer in Vonnegut's aphorism in Cat's Cradle - although I think he's a bit too hard, because some people have a hard time explaining in words things they understand in non-verbal ways.) J. Noel Chiappa 13:06, 1 April 2008 (CDT)

OK, here's a different timeline question: I started to add some key events, and I suddenly realized I was adding 'theory' items to a timeline labelled 'experiments'. So, should we unify both in one timeline (which I favour, because in real life each responds to the other), or have separate timelines? J. Noel Chiappa 17:19, 1 April 2008 (CDT)

A different approach

I accept that, how about starting with an explanation of wave and particle behavior in classical physics and the shock it gave when it appeared that electromagnetic waves and very light particles (electrons) share many properties? --Paul Wormer 13:11, 1 April 2008 (CDT)

That's part of what I'm doing. Give me an hour or so... J. Noel Chiappa 13:18, 1 April 2008 (CDT)

Noel, it is of course OK that you write a first draft, but you are a scientist and I wanted to get non-scientists involved (but probably that is hopeless, anyway). I thought that if we could trigger a non-scientist to write an article that (i) (s)he him/herself understood and that (ii) was acceptable to cognoscenti of QM, we would have a piece that could serve as one of CZ's flagships. I cannot judge whether your work will be readable by people without knowledge of QM, only people that lack the knowledge can. But how do we get those people to read and comment on your work? Many people like writing better than reading, so that's why I thought let them write it. --Paul Wormer 13:52, 1 April 2008 (CDT)

Trust me, I'm writing for the high-school art student! (I have a daughter in that category! :-) Maybe I'm in the best 'seat' to write this, as someone who's in the middle, between those two worlds (non-scientist, and physicist). I would certainly love feedback from non-scientists as to how good a job I've done (almost ready to go with the first chunk, which it the intro and "principal discoveries"), of course. J. Noel Chiappa 13:59, 1 April 2008 (CDT)

OK, how does this look

OK, I threw up a chunk of text for all to look at. This is of course not complete, but I felt I had enough text there to give a good sense of how, and the level, I thought we ought to come at this topic at. If y'all like it, I can crank our as much more as we think the article ought to cover. J. Noel Chiappa 14:11, 1 April 2008 (CDT)

After a few minor changes, and one a bit larger, I agree with Noel's chunk of text. Now the million dollar question is:

How is this perceived by somebody without prior knowledge of QM?

--Paul Wormer 17:11, 1 April 2008 (CDT)