Talk:Satanic ritual abuse

Suggested changes to the article - 2

Thank you both for the edits so far. Here are ones we agreed to that have not been done yet.

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I still disagree with the inclusion of this link http://www.churchofsatan.com/home.html Church of Satan It is not scholarly or peer reviewed.

Agree we should find a better source reference - apart from anything else I doubt that the website will be stable. I'm looking.Gareth Leng 14:50, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

for now how about changing it

Another view of the deviant interpretation of religious text, as well as some Satanist symbolism as a conscious counterculture, is present in the overt "Church of Satan"[22] formed in 1966 by Anton LaVey. Lewis traces LaVey's work as based on both countering Abrahamic religion as well as adapting non-Satanic occultists such as Aleister Crowley. [23] Lewis' analysis, however, does not suggest a long intergenerational tradition.

to this

Lewis traces the Church of Satan founder Anton LaVey's work as based on both countering Abrahamic religion as well as adapting non-Satanic occultists such as Aleister Crowley. [23] Lewis' analysis, however, does not suggest a long intergenerational tradition.

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In regard to the sentence "Such fantasy events can be elicited under hypnotic procedures and structured interviews which provide strong, repeated demands for the requisite experiences, and which then legitimate the experiences as "real memories."

Some researchers would question the fact that hypnosis can produce false memories of abuse.

I believe this should either be counterbalanced or removed.

A possible counterbalance could be "Though some believe that false memories of traumatic events cannot be easily created."

The sentence doesn't specify "of abuse" and it would be unethical to try to show that you can induce these. In the text, the phrase "such fantasy events" follows the preceding specific mention of "past-life experiences, or UFO alien contact and abduction". I doubbt if there can be dissent that these are false memories. But the reservation you mention should be stated somewhere if it's not already, I thought it was but I'll check Gareth Leng 14:50, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

--

How about placing it here -

after "But throughout the 1990s, academic psychologists began to demonstrate that false memories can be induced quite readily, especially with hypnotic-like techniques, and questioned the reliability of memories of disturbed patients." add "However, some believe that false memories of traumatic events cannot be created."

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This statement has been backed up by certain studies "Many therapists believed that recovered memories were likely to be accurate, that early trauma was a common cause of later psychological or behavioural disorders, that memories of traumatic events were often suppressed..."

Recovered memories have been shown in some studies to be accurate.

This should be re-written to add the sentence above after "beneficial therapeutically"

Can't put it in in exactly those terms; it's true that some apparently recovered memories are memories of events that actually happened. That's different in several respects from what you say here, but it can be well supported and should be in.Gareth Leng 14:50, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

--

how about adding after ""beneficial therapeutically" add

"In fact, some recovered memories have been corroborated by objective evidence and some studies have shown fairly high corroboration rates."

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In regard to a point we disagree on

There are convictions and trials for Satanic ritual abuse type cases. See [1] [2] Neil Brick 04:04, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

Actually the first link is quite a good catalogue showing the collapse of many cases, and the sparsity of cases that provide any evidence of Satanic conspiracies.

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In the first link, I am not sure if a case being overturned later is necessarily a "collapse." And several of the cases were not overturned.

I don't think it would be a stretch to add "though some believe that there were convictions in cases that contained Satanic ritual abuse information." after this phrase "A succession of high-profile court cases dissolved under judicial examination for lack of adequate objective evidence," This would actually be accurate.Neil Brick 03:20, 10 April 2009 (UTC)

Please use less whitespace; there are formatting options that would set off the text in question without taking up so much of the screen.

I'd note that the link [3] is prominently headed, Please note that this list was compiled and copyrighted by "Believe the Children" in 1997. It has not been updated since then. This is 2009.

Further, I object to changing the point about LaVey and leaving out the "counterculture" aspect, which is important to setting context. Indeed, there is a fair bit of context setting that could be included, such as the 1970s attention to MPD brought with the fictional Sybil, the rise in Christian fundamentalism with strong devil imagery being imprinted on children, the popular culture aspects of increased possession visibility with Rosemary's Baby and The Exorcist, etc. These are all things that can enter into imagery. Howard C. Berkowitz 03:40, 10 April 2009 (UTC)

The list may be from 1997, yet it does show some cases with convictions with ritual elements. My suggestion was to remove the reference for now, and Gareth stated "agree we should find a better source reference." Sybil was based on a real person's story.Neil Brick 04:05, 10 April 2009 (UTC)

Exactly. "was based" is not non-fiction. The imagery introduced by such works, as well as religious instruction, is a possible contributor to recall of Satanic symbols. Frankly, it's tiring to keep finding references with problems and then negotiate "a better one". As many others have said, it is not the collaborative approach here for an author to bring in materials supporting one side and then expect others to balance it. The model is that articles should be as balanced as possible starting with the first draft. Howard C. Berkowitz 04:18, 10 April 2009 (UTC)

I don't recall any Satanic symbolism, motifs or imagery in Sybil. And it was nonfiction. I should have been clearer about this. The refinement of an article entails finding better references as the article develops. I agree it is a good idea for articles to be balanced with a first draft. When I started writing articles here I thought that others would counterbalance, but now I realize that this isn't the approach here. Additionally, different editors may have different ideas about balance.Neil Brick 04:47, 10 April 2009 (UTC)

Predisposition to Satanic discoveries

I agree that the 1973 Sybil was not specifically about Satanism, but about MPD and "sadistic ritual abuse". Several reports, such as [4] reprinting a review in the New York Review of Books, found that much of the material had been falsified. The significance here is that it started the search for MPD in the 1970s, and the use of memory work. At this time, there was an increase in the number of self-described Christian therapists, who either themselves believed in the reality of Satan, or had patients with strong Catholic or Pentecostal backgrounds in which they were exposed to Satanic beliefs and symbols, as concepts of horror.

While many of the techniques of psychoanalysis have been discredited, there is still some utility to dream analysis, as long as the therapist and client understand that the dream memories are symbolic rather than real memories. Nathan and Snedeker (pp. 49-50, 82) draw an analogy between the techniques used to elicit memories from Sybil, and those used by Sean Conerly in McMartin. Howard C. Berkowitz 05:18, 10 April 2009 (UTC)

Others that worked with and knew Sybil disagreed with the idea the material had been falsified. Dr. Leah Dickstein (Dr. Wilbur's mentor) believed Sybil was a multiple. And the staff at Dr. Wilbur's clinic confirmed that she was multiple. She remembered that Sybil told her that the entire book was true and she thought there was no reason to falsify details. Her mother was known for her bizarre behavior. Neil Brick 15:35, 10 April 2009 (UTC)

TO NEIL

Neil, if you're going to make dozens of comments and suggestions here, PLEASE learn how to format your comments so that it is possible for us to read what you are writing. Please READ the blue box at the top of the screen before your make you next edits. Do NOT USE THE TAB key to indent your comments. Use the COLONS, as surely, I would have thought by now, you know. If you care going to have a meaningful interaction with other members here, it would be wise not to unnecessarily aggravagate them by your formatting. Hayford Peirce 03:52, 10 April 2009 (UTC)

Hayford, sorry about this. What happened was that I copied Gareth's comments from the previous section where they were already tabbed and I did not know I was supposed to remove the spaces created by these tabs. I will do so in the future. Neil Brick 03:57, 10 April 2009 (UTC)

Further, please do not intersperse your suggested changes between the paragraphs of another author, as it becomes difficult to tell who is saying what. The convention is to put all of your suggested changes below the previous block, with another level of colon indentation or an (undent). To identify what you want to change, you can copy the original text, or enough text to recognize it, and italicize it with double apostrophes. Where there are words you propose to be stricken, you can indicate by putting them between <s> and </s>. Please look at how more people more experienced at CZ format their entries, such as the use of bullets for lists. Howard C. Berkowitz 04:01, 10 April 2009 (UTC)

What I attempted to do was show Gareth's suggestions on my ideas, with my follow up ideas as to how they could work in the article. I guess this didn't work. Next time I will italicize text followed by my own comments and then indent all of this.Neil Brick

Bibliography

I've removed the McCully refs from the bibliography after finding the abstract below. Don't think there's any relevance here.

McCully RS (1978) ("A teenage murderer who killed his mother, his tiny half-brother, and his step-father was studied through the imagery he associated to three different editions of inkblots. These sets included the Rorschach, Behn-Rorschach, and Ka-Ro plates. The data were used to theorize about clues, dynamics, and diagnosis in this extreme case of adolescent violence. Family background and developmental history are included. The author takes the position that a conventional analysis of these data alone is not sufficient to fully understand familial murderers. Several of C.G. Jung's concepts, notably his view about the power of shadow-projections to influence conscious percepts and his philosophy about evil as a collective phenomenon, were used to speculate about ways we might extend our understanding of this subject's extreme form of violence. Defining the archetype as an energy-complex, the discussion theorized about possible ways different forms of paranoid ideation may arise.") Gareth Leng 15:53, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

On edits

Thanks Neil for your comments. You're obviously right that there have been a number of convictions over the years of people who have committed horrific crimes and who have used Satanic imagery, decorations etc. That doesn't need any qualification - it's true and can be stated clearly. The issues are a) whether these crimes are inspired by Satanic beliefs, or whether the perpetrators are no different from any other psychotic sadists; if there is a difference, b) is an organised (cult) belief system involved, and c) is there a conspiracy or conspiracies to conceal the existence of a cult that is responsible for systematic comission of cult-related crimes against children. I think it is right to note that when someone who wears Satanic symbols commits a crime, its not necessarily because of the influence of a Satanic cult (when someone who wears a crucifix commits a crime its not necessarily the Catholic church's fault).

It's not for us to decide whether a) b) and c) are true, but we should state that most academic analysts now think that a) is rarely true, and that most have concluded that b) and c) are not supported by any clear evidence.

I found some interesting historically -related references to other Satanic cult scares, on the biblio page - haven't had a chance to look at them closely

I'm away a few days now so can't contribute more just now, thanks to you all. Gareth Leng 10:10, 10 April 2009 (UTC)

Gareth, thank you for your hard work on the page. Though we may disagree at times about certain points of view, I have appreciated your hard work, research and fairness to all points of view. When you return, I hope we can continue to work on the changes we have agreed to above to make the article accurate and neutral when needed. As far as points B and C go, I would agree that more research is needed. Point A may entail bit of both, sadists that have Satanic beliefs or Satanists that are sadistic. In either case, they both probably belong in the article, since the crimes committed are those involving Satanic rituals and/or symbolism.Neil Brick 02:39, 11 April 2009 (UTC)

Software problems

Text here was removed by the Constabulary on grounds that it is needlessly inflammatory. (The author may replace this template with an edited version of the original remarks.) I am removing this entire discussion, as being useless and needlessly provocative. Please find other topics to discuss. Constable Hayford Peirce 19:55, 10 April 2009 (UTC)

Sybil and related matters

It's not likely to be productive to argue back and forth about the truth of Sybil. Presumably, various parties can produce statements indicating variously that the matter was proven beyond their individual suspicion, while others can produce investigations that throw substantial doubt on the accuracy of the work. It may well be that it would be useful for someone to start, balanced from the beginning, a separate article on MPD, to which this would be one input.

My point, in bringing this up, is that memories are not developed independently of context. Fully recognizing that anecdote is not the singular of data, when I was perhaps eight years old, I saw a police poster with photographs and drawings of a child who had been beaten to death. The police wanted help in identifying him. That image filled my nightmares for years; I had nightmares at the time in which I was that boy, and, decades later, I can still clearly remember those images. The images came up when I underwent psychoanalysis, but it was clear, in that context, that they were symbolic.

From several people, between roughly the ages of eight and fifteen, I had sexual and physical abuse (different sources). The physical damage was easy enough to recognize, and eventually get me out of the situation. No one would believe my stories of the sexual abuse, about which I needed no probing. Eventually, as a growing teenager with judo training, I overpowered the sexual abuser and frog-marched him, half-naked, into the presence of witnesses.

Nothing was ritualized in any of this, save that the uncle that beat me would claim he was doing it in the traditions of the United States Marine Corps, which I'll only say is a perversion of the value of the Corps. Still, when I idly think of that abuse, I still have strong mental image of that unidentified dead boy. It would have been awfully easy for memory work to suggest that the circumstances of that death were things that happened to me.

My point in bringing up Sybil, of the rise of Christian fundamentalism in which children were routinely taught about an active Devil, of the possession bestsellers that preceded Michelle Remembers, and in some of the feminist theory of the time, that there were rich sources for imagery. Perhaps there was real physical and sexual abuse, but, in therapy, it was recounted, or guided, by symbols of the patient, therapist, or both.

Given that we are talking of a peak of reports in the 1980s, it does not seem irrelevant to be giving background from the seventies and late sixties. Howard C. Berkowitz 16:34, 10 April 2009 (UTC)

I agree that it is probably counterproductive to argue about Sybil. I am not sure if it is true that "memories are not developed independently of context" at least in the case of abuse memories. There is evidence that abuse memories are encoded differently in the mind than nontraumatic ones, but this is not the place to debate this. Just as some are skeptical (or have trouble believing in the existence of Satanic ritual abuse crimes), it is important to be equally skeptical or analytical about attributing the motives of ritual abuse survivors (such as simply wanting empathy for discussing abuse memories, which to me personally doesn't make sense, since survivors of abuse in general usually are very hesitant to go public with their memories) or theories about possible social panics, regardless of publisher or credentials of the author.

In reply to your comments about your history, it is unfortunate that child abuse crimes have existed and that you and others were and at times continue not to be believed. Throughout history, such as after Freud wrote his famous Aetiology in 1898, society has seriously looked at child abuse crimes only to turn its back and then allow them to continue again. Though it is not necessarily the job of this page to discuss this, we are all a part of history and through our research can influence it.Neil Brick 02:39, 11 April 2009 (UTC)

I'm not sure what you mean by "counterproductive", as I specifically mean that the Sybil and related predisposition to Satanic symbolism should be in the article. Memory encoding has no place in this article, but possible societal sources of the sudden burst of Satanic reports is entirely appropriate.

I said nothing whatsoever about motives. I spoke of sources of symbolism in reports. Further, I really wasn't looking for sympathy, but to make the point that substantial amounts of abuse do not involve ritual; I am concerned that the overemphasis on the bizarre causes the straightforward to be ignored. There has always been a child abuse article here as well as a child sexual abuse article, but they have not been updated; the emphasis has been on ritual, Satanic, recovered memory, and other things that are statistically rare at best. Howard C. Berkowitz 03:31, 11 April 2009 (UTC)

I disagree that Sybil has a place in the article. We have discussed excluding abuse from the article that has no connection to Satanism. I agree that other articles should be updated if needed. Neil Brick 19:01, 11 April 2009 (UTC)

There is, I believe, a reasonable case that can be drawn from the 1960s-1970s increase in emphasis on possession, MPD, and Satanic imagery presented in religious contexts, to the reports of Satanism in the 1980s. Do not include me in "we" agreeing that this is unrelated. Howard C. Berkowitz 19:22, 11 April 2009 (UTC)

Discussion styles and laser tag

For many years, the U.S. Army had great difficulty in conducting realistic training, as things tended to go back to the childhood "I shot you! No, I shot you first!". Training took a quantum leap in effectiveness with the introduction of the MILES system, a "super laser tag" system, attached to every weapon, soldier, vehicle, and seemingly every rock, on the test range. Sensors recorded when one was hit with the laser, and would lock the weapon of a presumably killed trainee. Without the back and forth arguments, the tactical analysis could reach high quality.

Has anyone else noticed the pattern of inconclusive argument here? How many times have some of the same studies (e.g., Bottom & Shavers, EAS, the convictions list) been brought up and rejected? Is there a time to cry "halt?" Is it necessary to fight over every word and phrase when there does seem to be a consensus on mainstream opinion? I absolutely agree that the apparent minority view needs to be presented, with criticism, in the article. I absolutely disagree that it is productive to continue to micro-edit. Howard C. Berkowitz 16:40, 10 April 2009 (UTC)

I agree that arguing probably doesn't work, however I do believe that a back and forth discussion up to a point on certain topics can. To produce a quality article that is neutral and fair to the majority and minority opinions, I believe contributors should discuss and make sure the article is a good one.Neil Brick 02:39, 11 April 2009 (UTC)

And that point, I believe, has long passed. Howard C. Berkowitz 03:32, 11 April 2009 (UTC)

I respect your opinion, yet I think the points that Gareth and I are discussing are ones we can still look at, to ensure a quality article.Neil Brick 03:37, 11 April 2009 (UTC)

The point should be made that the discussion is not between you and Gareth, but indeed is under Editor direction. There is, perhaps, some suggestion, here and there, by one person or another, that others believe this is at a point of diminishing returns. Just a thought, of course. Howard C. Berkowitz 03:44, 11 April 2009 (UTC)

OK, let's see what Gareth thinks when he returns. He did agree that some points were good ones. Neil Brick 19:01, 11 April 2009 (UTC)

All the previous discussions have been moved to Archive 2 -- and a farewell to this discussion

This page had grown distressingly long -- I therefore moved everything previous to the discussion section called "Suggestions 2" into Archive 2.

I am now recusing myself, both as a sometime Constable, and as sometime contributor to this page and to any of the other pages involving SRA and all the other fringe topics that have succeeded in becoming the single biggest time-dump and time-waste that I can recall seeing since joining Citizendium in May of 2007. Please do not write to me on either my User page or my private email address about any of these subjects, as I will no longer reply to any of them. If you feel that you need Constabulary action at any time, you can click on constables@citizendium.org and send them a message, or you might try appealing directly to User talk:D. Matt Innis. Good luck to all of you in your on-going endeavors! Hayford Peirce 16:55, 10 April 2009 (UTC)

Workgroup assignments

Should Anthropology be changed to Psychology? When I created the article, I was thinking of Anthropology as covering rituals that were not strictly religions. Many of the issues brought up here relate to memory and symbolism; Daniel Mietchen, a Psychology Editor, has already given opinions that this and related articles belong more to Psychology than Anthropology. I agree. Howard C. Berkowitz 17:55, 11 April 2009 (UTC)

I agree, too. Neil Brick 19:01, 11 April 2009 (UTC)

request to take a break from these article topics

A comment here was deleted by The Constabulary on grounds of making complaints about fellow Citizens. If you have a complaint about the behavior of another Citizen, e-mail constables@citizendium.org. It is contrary to Citizendium policy to air your complaints on the wiki. See also CZ:Professionalism. Whatever the spirit in which these comments were made, I really don't think that they're very "professional" or add much to the discussion. I am, therefore, removing them. Constable Hayford Peirce 21:48, 11 April 2009 (UTC)

I would be delighted to contribute in areas more of my specialization, and indeed have been continuing to do so in Military and Computers. I created this article to help balance, with a more precisely defined topic, what I saw as an even greater flood of less neutral traffic.

As far as Psychology, I can offer a fair bit of alternatives in the Interrogation hierarchy, to say nothing of rocket science and satellite communications. Howard C. Berkowitz 21:14, 11 April 2009 (UTC)

Hayford, you are indeed a strict copper. But now Howard's comment is dangling somewhat oddly in mid-air.--Paul Wormer 21:57, 11 April 2009 (UTC)

(sings) "Hangin' from the gallows tree..." Howard C. Berkowitz 22:00, 11 April 2009 (UTC)

Hannah Lee is indeed almost my favorite song. As for Howard dangling like a participle from the Header, I considered that, mulled it over, thought about, and then decided to let it stand. A hundred years from now, who'll care? Hayford Peirce 22:15, 11 April 2009 (UTC)

Just delete the whole post. I'd appreciate an email explaining how I could have worded my request to be more professional. I'm not a big fan of the Professionalism template - from my user perspective - it feels like the poster of the template (whenever used) is on a powertrip even though we all know that it is not the case, Hayford. I know you mean the best - so just delete it from the record, not making people dig through the history to read it. Tom Kelly 22:15, 11 April 2009 (UTC)

Sorry, Tom, I have made my decision as a Constable in this case and it is going to stand. There is no reason to delete Howard's comment. Everyone who writes articles in CZ and/or discusses them in the Talk pages presumably does so in good faith. Their contributions should not be denigrated by other Citizens for what appeared to me, and still does so, to be a trivial reason. Nor should we hide the fact that a comment has been deleted as being inappropriate. If you do a little searching, you will find that all of us have, at one time or another, had a comment removed for one reason or another, up to and including the Editor-in-Chief himself. This is simply part of the way Citizendium works. Hayford Peirce 22:33, 11 April 2009 (UTC)

I agree with Hayford's action here. And he performed it according to the current template policies. The only requirement for an email would be if he were to be giving a warning which I presume he didn't. You can rephrase your comment, Tom, but be careful, if it's not productive, I wouldn't bother. D. Matt Innis 02:12, 12 April 2009 (UTC)