User talk:Arne Eickenberg/Archive 1

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Welcome to the Citizendium! We hope you will contribute boldly and well. Here are pointers for a quick start, and see Getting Started for other helpful "startup" links, our help system and CZ:Home for the top menu of community pages. You can test out editing in the sandbox if you'd like. If you need help to get going, the forum is one option. That's also where we discuss policy and proposals. You can ask any user or the editors for help, too. Just put a note on their "talk" page. Again, welcome and have fun! Also, if you have experience contributing to Wikipedia, our Introduction to Citizendium for Wikipedians is highly recommended. — Stephen Ewen 20:17, 8 April 2007 (CDT)


A few words about workgroups

We are indeed happy to have you in the community. We would also like to introduce you to Citizendium's Workgroups and encourage you to--

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Biology banner.png
Biology article All articles (1,623) To Approve (0) Editors: active (1) / inactive (46)
and
Authors: active (441) / inactive (0) 		Workgroup Discussion
Recent changes Citable Articles (25)
Subgroups (12.5)
Checklist-generated categories:

Subpage categories:

Missing subpage categories:

Article statuses:

  • In the 2nd column, find the link that says, "all articles," which lists all articles that users have placed [[Category:Biology Workgroup]] at the bottom of their articles.
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Stephen Ewen 20:17, 8 April 2007 (CDT)

Recently uploaded image(s)

Hi. Thanks for contributing to CZ! I hate to have to tell you this but one or more images you recently uploaded are lacking clear copyright data. Please carefully review the image(s) you uploaded while referencing Images Help—Copyrights. Please fix the problem rapidly, as the image(s) will otherwise have to be deleted. In this case, it looks like you just need to place in the source from which you obtained the image. Thanks! — Stephen Ewen 20:15, 8 April 2007 (CDT)

Hi Stephen, thanks for the hint. I already wrote you an e-mail. If the image is deleted before any license issues are cleared, then so be it. I would just have to upload it again then. (^_~). Best wishes & season's greetings. —Arne Eickenberg 08:52, 9 April 2007 (CDT)
Harlan J. Berk agreed to the use of any of their images as long as they are given credit. —Arne Eickenberg 11:05, 9 April 2007 (CDT)

Hi. We appreciate very much your contributions to the Citizendium. I was hoping you could help clear up a matter about the images you recently uploaded. They are lacking clear copyright and source data and need to have it as soon as practicable to avoid deletion. To fix the problem, please review the images you uploaded (click on "my contributions" at the upper-right to re-trace your steps or see the links I added) in light of Images Help—Copyrights. If you need additional help, just ask a constable or leave a message on my talk page and I'll be more than glad to assist. —

You need to carefully follow the directions to document permissions. Stephen Ewen 21:13, 11 April 2007 (CDT)
Great job, Arne. Thanks! Stephen Ewen 21:16, 4 May 2007 (CDT)

Got the lock page message. Thanks for staying on top of this stuff. :-) ---Stephen Ewen 14:04, 13 May 2007 (CDT)

Thanks hugely for Ancient Celtic music

I never knew that that much was known about ancient Celtic music. What I would like to know, personally, as an aficionado of Irish traditional music, is whether experts have any information whatsoever about whether the traditional musics of Ireland, Scotland, Wales, and Brittany--called collectively "Celtic," and which have some family resemblances--are anything like a continuation of the music you describe in that article?

Also, here's a stupid question--were there any ancient music notation systems? Any old tunebooks available? I'd like to see articles about that. Obviously, if there were any ancient Celtic tunes notated, we'd be able to have opinions about musical influences or continuity. --Larry Sanger 13:48, 13 April 2007 (CDT)

Hi Larry, I don't know of any expert research on the musical transmission in the "Celtic" region from antiquity through the Mediaeval Ages. I personally don't think it's probable that today's (or the Mediaeval) "Celtic folklore" is based on the Celtic music of antiquity. Today we have folklore, but back then it was a very sophisticated and integral civilization probably including highly developed music styles and practices, in the political, military, religious realm and other fields, at least before the times of the Roman empire. There is definitely a continuous musical tradition through the ages, but only on the highest level, and it is restricted to the "victors". Christian liturgical music for instance, especially the Gregorian music, is mainly based on ancient Roman monophonic sacral chants, also e.g. the dual choir (Latin/Greek) in the Good-Friday liturgy being a continuation of Roman funerary practices which can be traced back to Caesar's funeral service. So integral musical transmission (especially in the Dark Ages) would be restricted to the tightened (theo)political structures, i.e. Christianity as a continuation of the vanished Roman empire. This imperial power (whether Roman at first or Christian later) would have assimilated, superposed and altered any pre-existing musical culture, especially one of such a highly civilized culture as the Celtic chiefdoms. (The same happened to the Etruscans, by the way.) We know the saying: "There can be only one." But this would only apply for the "high society", where music—in combination with the sacral/liturgical sphere—was part of the complex of political rulership: "Christus vincit/imperat/regnat" etc.. In rural cultures it was probably different. I guess there could have been some remnants of ancient Celtic music passed down in tradition (despite Roman cultural rule), similar to the dirges (neniae) of the ancient Roman praeficae, which have been partially preserved as the Italian lament tradition, especially in Sardinia. There was surely a lot of intercultural exchange and foreign influx, which would account for the "family resemblances" that you mention, but it's a different social structure than what was known as the Celtic culture in antiquity. The key characteristic of the Mediaeval Ages on the common (i.e. peasant) level is what's called by some the wild dispersion of universalia. When Rome vanished, Europe was left in "cultural ruins" without any defining and structuring force. (The latter was restricted to the Church; see above.) On the lower levels of society (i.e. the great majority of the people) we are dealing with an extremely heterogenous rankgrowth of legends, cultural fragments from antiquity etc. pp., new legends (like King Arthur and the Nibelungs) surfacing as rehashes of vanished ancient times. The "grunt musical culture" in this environment would have been very particulate, regionally anchored and highly fragmented. Only later would the foreign influx have begun to slowly harmonize the Northern-European musical culture. It's very significant that the musical genre that we today call "Celtic music" only began around the 17th century.
Your question on the ancient notation system is anything but stupid. :-) We know from ancient sources that there was a Greek notation system, which probably also the Romans used. (However, only Greek "music scores" have survived.) Since the Celts seem to have been a highly civilized culture, they will definitely have written down their music in some way or another. (I'd bet on that!) But sadly, none of the ancient Celtic music has survived in this way. Not even the Roman music has been passed down to us; we know it only as a Christian mutation (Gregorian, Byzantine etc.; see above). So the only information we can gather is from the sources and depictions, e.g. the construction of the instruments, the sound of the carnyx, the fact that the early Germanic tribes knew how to rhyme (long before the Irish tribes) etc. pp.. Reconstructional work in this respect is to be taken with a grain of salt. It is often suitable to re-enact the sound and some playing techniques, but anything concerning melody and harmony is pure speculation. (It's feasible however that Gallic/Celtic music was in some way "romanized"… or at least hellenized, because the Greeks came to Gaul long before the Romans did.) With rhythm it's a different thing: From ancient poems one can extract the metrics and therefore the "beat" of the music that might have been associated with the lyrics.
Best wishes. —Arne Eickenberg 19:26, 13 April 2007 (CDT)
PS (edit): I've now added the paragraphs on the Germanic chants to the article. —Arne Eickenberg 09:52, 14 April 2007 (CDT)

Thanks very much--very interesting. Perhaps you could make a start on Celtic music, explaining the ambiguity and your understanding of the early history of what we now call "Celtic music." Here's another stupid question: do the people called Celtic, or Gaelic, today, have any even genetic relation to the ancient Celts? Why are they called the same? --Larry Sanger 10:45, 17 April 2007 (CDT)

Image:Augustus_Capricorn_SidusIulium.jpg

You need to contact Eric Kondratieff and ask about this image. A link is not a graphic. Too, you need to ask about your modifying the original image from which it came. I went ahead and deleted this one because it is just too problematic. If you need help, just ask me.

NOTE: image of this gemma ("Augustus_Capricorn_SidusIulium.jpg") extracted from a jpeg-image combining several coins and gemmas; Copyright by Eric Kondratieff

If you get Eric Kondratieff to release it under an open content license (the first thing you should ask), or failing that use it by explicit permission of him, and permission to alter the image, let me know and I will undelete the pages and we can fix them.

Stephen Ewen 12:00, 14 May 2007 (CDT)

Re-uploaded w/ permission. Sadly, no open content license. He agreed to a re-use, even including "extraction-type" alterations, but it should be done as a case-by-case approach for each image. —Arne Eickenberg 10:21, 4 July 2007 (CDT)

Illustrations

Arne,

I think that Ancient Celtic music is just about ready for Approval. I was wondering, though, if it might be possible to add an illustration or two of some of the instruments discussed later in the article. I've left a note on the article's Talk page with one suggestion. Let me know what you thing. Cheers, Russell Potter 09:09, 12 June 2007 (CDT)

Please put back approval template

Arne, take a look at the message I put on Russell Potter's talk page, please. Add all you like. Approval will take place with changes Rusell approves. Once there is approval, you can keep working and it can be re-approved in a new version. An author is not allowed t change the approval template, and further- there is no reason to do so. Quality is not at stake here. I am taking a break and can only look in on te wiki now and then for the next couple of weeks- e-mail me vfrom my user page if you need to discuss this. Nancy Sculerati 09:49, 12 June 2007 (CDT)

Nancy, and Arne, I have re-inserted the Approval template, with an updated pointer and a June 15th approval date. Let me know if/when you'd like that pointer updated so that any additional changed will make it into the Approved version! Thanks as every for your careful concern! But don't worry, it's fine to make improvements now, and even after approval! Russell Potter 09:58, 12 June 2007 (CDT)

Your name

Hi Arne, I am here to let you know that using only your initials as a nickname does not conform to Citizendium guidelines. Would you please change it to something that uses your full last name and some form of your first and or middle names. Thanks. --Matt Innis (Talk) 11:37, 12 June 2007 (CDT)

Oh, okay… didn't know that. I used the standard wiki-link like this: ((User: User name|User Initials)), which doesn't actually alter the name itself but only how it's printed on the specific page. —Arne Eickenberg 08:57, 15 June 2007 (CDT)

Approval: Ancient Celtic music

Hi Arne,

Just a brief note -- Ancient Celtic music entry is up for Approval today -- are you satisfied that it's ready? Remember, it need not be either "perfect" in form or completely comprehensive, just well-written and able to stand on its own for now (as in my own view it already is). Further work can, and should be done, to develop it well beyond Approval, but right now I think it would be fabulous to have this as one of our Approved entries, to highlight something that no other encyclopedia covers in such depth and care. Let me know your thoughts. Cheers, Russell Potter 07:28, 15 June 2007 (CDT)

I'm doing the final edits now. —Arne Eickenberg 08:57, 15 June 2007 (CDT)
Arne, saw your note that you felt the article was all set, so I let the Constables know and updated the Approval pointer. Just a minute ago, you made an additional small edit; I updated the pointer once more to reflect that. Are we set to go? If any minor copyediting things are found -- I couldn't find any -- we can always have a constable correct them at your request without doing things over again (I just had this done with Northwest Passage when I noticed an incorrect date!). Thanks, Russell Potter 11:35, 15 June 2007 (CDT)
I've just finished my last edit. (I had found more infos on other Celtic instruments.) Off for a coffee now… you can hand it over to the constables now. ;-) —Arne Eickenberg 11:40, 15 June 2007 (CDT)
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