Talk:English spellings

Page name

It is too arduous to edit my Word list to include only homophones, hence the name change. All the homophones will still be there, locatable by the equals sign. Ro Thorpe = Reaux Zourpe 16:27, 12 March 2008 (CDT)

a strange disaster

I gotta say that I don't understand

• disāsterous at all. I changed it to what seemed to me to be correct, but you've changed it back. I imagine, with a reason. But if I'm baffled by this inexplicable form/word, I imagine that others will be too. What's the scoop on this baby? Hayford Peirce 19:21, 12 March 2008 (CDT)

Yes, that was before I explained the all-important asterisk. Have a look at the first paragraph again: I think it is now *cleer. Ro Thorpe 09:21, 13 March 2008 (CDT)

Ghoti

ghoti pronounced fish is an old joke attributed to George Bernard Shaw; gh as in rough, o as in women and ti as in nation Gareth Leng 12:21, 13 March 2008 (CDT)

then there's the Scots - Menzies is pronounced Mingis because the z here stands for the letter yogh....Gareth Leng 12:24, 13 March 2008 (CDT)

Or 'tough women patients', as I had in my original, written [sighs] many years before we had heard of the Ming... Ro Thorpe 13:21, 13 March 2008 (CDT)

I've put Menzies in my Word list, ready to go in, and, alongside Ming, Robert Menzies, former Australian PM, whose surname had the regular pronunciation *Ménziz.

By the way, if anyone wants to help out with the boring spacing & italics... For the moment I'm just concentrating on putting it all in there. I hadn't realised how huge the list was. Ro Thorpe 11:49, 14 March 2008 (CDT)

TOC

needs sharp right, but I forget how. Ro Thorpe 19:37, 14 March 2008 (CDT)

I had a pipe | instead of a hyp - Ro Thorpe 10:10, 15 March 2008 (CDT)

Hello, question about the accent marks

Hello, this is one of my favorite articles on CZ for its uniqueness and usefulness. However, should there be a little disclaimer sorta warning the reading of accent marks used for pronunciation before they start appearing throughout the article? I'm used to seeing accent marks when I read the pronunciation of a dictionary entry but not used to reading them in prose, unless I'm reading French or Spanish or another language. What do you think? Tom Kelly 22:14, 23 March 2008 (CDT)

I agree entirely on this -- life is hard enough as it is without being even further confessed by accent marks! I don't mind them being there -- I just want them explained FIRST IN CAPITAL LETTERS IF NEED BE! Hayford Peirce 22:37, 23 March 2008 (CDT)

:) H.P., Caps may be a bit much ;0 Tom Kelly 00:46, 24 March 2008 (CDT)

I'm glad you like the article, Tom, and that you are prepared to tolerate the accents, Hayford... I invented them in a pub garden one sunny afternoon in Guimarães around 1995. I'd finished the Guardian Weekly crossword, the dog was calm, there were no table football players to drive us nuts, & I started doodling accents on the headlines: what would accents be like if we had them in English? It was when I came up with the 'third sound' (fàther, vèin, machìne, mòther, pùt), a motley selection & not a category I'd come across in linguistic literature, that I decided it could be useful, so I started writing all this stuff & using, very sparingly, the accents when teaching, e.g. for board drills: hêar, hêre, thére. Well, it seems my link to English phonemes doesn't do the trick, so I reckon the best thing would be to put a table in here. It's quite large, but then so is the article... Ro Thorpe 09:30, 24 March 2008 (CDT)

Catalog

Shouldn't the misspelled words be in catalogues? --Robert W King 13:53, 24 March 2008 (CDT)

I didn't have a clue what you meant by this, but your comment at Talk:British and American English makes it clear. Well, however you think they are best organised... Ro Thorpe 12:53, 28 March 2008 (CDT)

looking good. long term idea - audio

long term idea would be to add audio to the words. Wikipedia has something along the lines of audio pronunciation of certain words and also entire articles that are read outloud. Tom Kelly 00:30, 25 March 2008 (CDT)

Formatting - help!

I'll be 58 in April & I want to live to see this article done! If you've got a few seconds when your watchlist is inactive...Obrigadissimo - Ro Thorpe 20:05, 27 March 2008 (CDT)

accents on Hawaiian words

For a while now, some sources, such as the National Geographic, are using some accents on Hawaiian words, such as the famous Nā Pali cliffs in Kauai. Does this count? Hayford Peirce 11:16, 28 March 2008 (CDT)

I didn't know that. I think it merits a footnote. That reminds me of the row over the okina we had at Wikipedia. There I was, innocently accusing it of being an apostrophe... Ro Thorpe 11:26, 28 March 2008 (CDT)

You might check this out -- it ought to be a fairly definitive source:http://www.hawaii.edu/offices/eaur/styleguide.html Hayford Peirce 11:36, 28 March 2008 (CDT)

Interesting, but I can't find anything about accents. Ro Thorpe 11:47, 28 March 2008 (CDT)

Nuts. Well, here's another one, somewhat less scholarly, however. http://www.geocities.com/~olelo/o-pronunciation.html Hayford Peirce 12:03, 28 March 2008 (CDT)

That will do nicely. I've put in the link. Ro Thorpe 12:36, 28 March 2008 (CDT)

Formatting - help! Part 2

I've hurt my ancient shoulder & must retire from making this look good. If anyone wants to try it, it's obvious what is required once you put the page in edit mode. So now I entrust it to the Citizens of the Future... Ro Thorpe 18:56, 13 April 2008 (CDT)

Take one bottle of rum -- pour half over your shoulder and rub vigorously. Drink the other half.... Bon reetablissement! Hayford Peirce 19:04, 13 April 2008 (CDT)

Hmm, wish I had some. Anyway, it's a bit better today. Ro Thorpe 10:46, 14 April 2008 (CDT)

I guess I am missing something. I would be happy to format this, if only I knew what to do. I'm up for a challenge :) John Dvorak 16:48, 23 April 2008 (CDT)

Thanks, that's great. I wonder if you have clicked on 'edit': the edit view gives an idea what the Word original looks like. Anyway, I'm now going to fully edit a bit: that'll make it clear, I hope, if you compare the versions in the history. The hardest work, bolding the headwords, can be (indeed is being...) left till last (if you think it's necessary at all). Ro Thorpe 11:38, 24 April 2008 (CDT)

I'm going to find a more substantial bit to edit now. Ro Thorpe 11:44, 24 April 2008 (CDT)

I guess I'm still missing it. I see how it would look in a Word format, but I don't know what specifically to do to "wikify it". John Dvorak 16:38, 26 April 2008 (CDT)

Thanks for your continuing interest. I've just done some work on the beginning, & it's now complete up to abdóminal, which is the next one that needs bolding. Essentially, it's bolding the example words (including all the headwords) and italicising the explanation words (many of the latter I have already done). If you'd like to just jump in & continue on... I'll keep an eye on it & 'sweep up' anything you miss or get wrong - OK? Ro Thorpe 17:11, 26 April 2008 (CDT)

Sure, sounds great! John Dvorak 17:28, 26 April 2008 (CDT)

Hope you still feel that way after editing a bit! Ro Thorpe 17:32, 26 April 2008 (CDT)

Good, you're getting the hang. B is looking good. Ro Thorpe 19:14, 26 April 2008 (CDT) - But don't bother to italicise 'one word' and 'two words' .- I think of them as explanatory, not exemplary.

Nice work, John. Percentagewise, I'd say you're already in the high nineties. Don't forget the golden rule: if it's correct, it's bold, if it's not, it ain't. Thanks again. Ro Thorpe 08:25, 27 April 2008 (CDT)

Wohoo! I got an A! But really, I wouldn't say I enjoy this, but I am pretty sure I dislike it less than most others. Also, I will never again forget how to bold or italicize words. John Dvorak 12:19, 27 April 2008 (CDT)

Take it easy, there's no deadline. And remember, don't include the respellings in the bolding. Ro Thorpe 12:32, 27 April 2008 (CDT)

- thanks for your work on this, it's now possible for others to see what needs to be done - Ro Thorpe 11:38, 1 May 2008 (CDT)

the guy who holds up columns

I gotta say I never hoid anyone say colum-mist, just colum-nist. Is this a Brit thing? Or is one of us mishearing things? Or hanging out with the wrong crowd? Hayford Peirce 17:26, 1 May 2008 (CDT)

Is the "n" pronounced in "columnist"? So long as columnist was in rather restricted use, the formal pronuncia-tion at least was col' um nist, and this is the pronunciation generally recorded in the dictionaries. When the word became common in its news-paper sense, the pronunciation was simplified to col' um ist and is so recorded in the Standard Dictionary and in Webster as "used by some." (This is disregarding the possibility of the once humorous col' yum ist becoming regular usage in this meaning.) Since fifth columnist has be-come a word of mass use (and overuse), the simpler pronunciation has become general. Most radio speakers use it. The problem is just one small by-product of an attitude toward spelling in which vestigial never sounded letters are highly regarded.

P. G. PERRIN

College English, Vol. 2, No. 6 (Mar., 1941), pp. 605-606 [1] -Derek Hodges 21:27, 1 May 2008 (CDT)

That's a pretty old citation. The Merriam-Webster's 11th Edition gives all three pron., to be sure, but gives the "nist" one first.... Hayford Peirce 22:21, 1 May 2008 (CDT)

as you can probably gather, i've only recently noticed the n pronounced - Ro Thorpe 09:47, 2 May 2008 (CDT)

Formatting problem

The formatting problem I can't solve is at the entry on its - Ro Thorpe 17:24, 2 May 2008 (CDT)

It took some hunting, but I got it. There was a missing closing apostrophe on one of the definitions. John Dvorak 17:44, 2 May 2008 (CDT)

In the next sentence - well spotted! Ro Thorpe 17:58, 2 May 2008 (CDT)

Duplication

I removed a lot of stuff from C that I accidentally transferred twice from Word. Ro Thorpe 13:19, 3 May 2008 (CDT)

Thanks for your continued work, John, it's looking good - Ro Thorpe 09:31, 9 May 2008 (CDT)

owe needs to go in - Ro Thorpe 10:38, 15 May 2008 (CDT)

What's the name of the other article?

Hi, Ro -- what's the name of the Brit/Amer. word article? I seem to remember reading old Brit. novels in which the characters used the "cigar lighter" in their motors on the way to the aerodrome instead of "cigarette (or cigaret) lighters".... Vrai? Pas vrai? Hayford Peirce 11:26, 15 May 2008 (CDT)

british + american english. vrai, i guess. - thanks for email explaining dolly's doohdahs. a case of idiolect, i imagine - a favorite word of mine. no, i couldn't play it, yes, do try again.

A nice word! I'll send it again via gMail or whatever it's called. Hayford Peirce 17:11, 15 May 2008 (CDT)

i left some more words on the french talk page for you to put in if you haven't already. i really am a 1-armed bandit at the moment. clink... Ro Thorpe 16:18, 15 May 2008 (CDT)

Righto. I saw them, but wasn't *quite* certain what to do.... I would sure hate to have to use a computer with just one hand.... Hayford Peirce 17:11, 15 May 2008 (CDT)

well, i tried dolly again but the wait-wheel looked set to last the 3 mins 40 that the song does, + again it wouldn't close so i restarted the computer + deleted it. what is the song, anyway, i might know it~ Ro Thorpe 15:31, 16 May 2008 (CDT)

It was just a pleasant song written by her, with a catchy tune, and frequent use in the chorus of "oft-ten". Here are the lyrics: http://www.seeklyrics.com/lyrics/Dolly-Parton/I-Remember.html Dunno why it didn't go through -- I sent you "This Ol' House" a while ago with no trouble. But maybe it wasn't as big a file.... Hayford Peirce 16:32, 16 May 2008 (CDT)

wasn't there a false start with the house, too~ very mysterious - anyway, i'm off to read the lyrics... Ro Thorpe 17:57, 16 May 2008 (CDT) - yeah, of-ten. there's a new girlie on the bbc ws who does opportuniteez all the time, named doreen - not jolene - i have to switch her off. all those yrs teaching foreigners how to pronounce english + now the natives go + reward me like this... Ro Thorpe 18:04, 16 May 2008 (CDT)

Hehe. Or, en francais, hihi.... Hayford Peirce 20:47, 16 May 2008 (CDT)

a tit for tat

My understanding, just confirmed by a visit to MW, is that "teat" is correctly pronounced "tit", to rhyme with "bit" or "sit", not "teet" to rhyme with "meet". The second pron. is given, however. Over-rafeened ppls have evidently brought the "teet" pron. into common (or even standard) usage. Yours for correctness! Hayford Peirce 14:26, 26 May 2008 (CDT)

sorry i forgot about that. yes, mw seems to say that, but i have never heard the pron, tho the words are evidently cognate, a class or agricultural divide, my pig's tits are the biggest... - Ro Thorpe 18:33, 28 May 2008 (CDT)

Gah, the puns! They burn! John Dvorak 18:42, 28 May 2008 (CDT)

could someone put the asterisk in before fyord please - my shoulder, i forget, use it + it gets worse again... Ro Thorpe 18:46, 28 May 2008 (CDT)

thanks, john - Ro Thorpe 13:19, 29 May 2008 (CDT)

Well, that was fun

It took a bit longer than I expected (by a long shot), but it got done. I know there are things that I've missed (like the entire Retroalphabetical list), but I'm gonna put this down as a job well done :). One last thought; should this be split into separate pages? i.e. each letter gets a page, possibly with WXYZ together or such. It is pretty long as it is, and may take a toll on some connections. I would be willing to do this if others agree with me. John Dvorak 13:46, 24 May 2008 (CDT)

bravo + many thanks. - as for splitting it up, i'll leave that for others. possibly each letter could be combined into the articles on the letters themselves, which are quite short - Ro Thorpe 14:02, 24 May 2008 (CDT)

At a quarter of a MB, I would say it's definitely time to split this up into subpages. I'm not too big about putting the content on the pages about the letters; I think the content is sufficiently different that it deserves to be separate.

So I'd go for English_spellings/A, etc. I thought about putting more than one letter on a page (e.g. English_spellings/A-D), to give us fewer, larger, subpages, but I'm not sure it's worth it (and it's more work down the road if we need to subdivide further). I suppose we could put A-D on /A, and have the index links here go (invisibly) to the appropriate place on that subpage, and when that subpage gets too large, move C-D to /C, and (invisibly) adjust the index links here, or something like that. But please do split it up somehow. J. Noel Chiappa 12:12, 1 June 2008 (CDT)

Hrm... I guess I agree with you about giving each letter it's own individual subpage. I wanted to see this become the biggest page (now #2), but I guess it's time to split :). I'm thinking; the main page as an index (with the explanations) and each specific letter page having a table of contents to other pages (not through the subpages header. That could get messy). If y'all agree, I'll go ahead and get started. John Dvorak 12:34, 1 June 2008 (CDT)

Thanks to the move, we dropped more than 50 points on The List (maybe not such a bad thing). Now I'm just wondering what to do with the apostrophes and (more importantly) the retroalphabetic list. Any ideas? John Dvorak 15:04, 1 June 2008 (CDT)

ah, i'm glad you said that. the apostrophe is treated throughout as the last letter of the alphabet, so it goes after z - i mentioned that in the intro. if you could save me the bother of transferring it... the retro list i'm not so sure about - there are various possibilities. as the idea is my own, i'd like it to have maximum exposure, hehe, + it might be best to leave it where it is. Ro Thorpe 15:41, 1 June 2008 (CDT)

I'll be sure to transfer the apostrophe then. I would tend to agree with you about the retro list too. Alright, we'll keep it where it is. John Dvorak 15:47, 1 June 2008 (CDT)

explanation of accent marks before the first accent mark is used

The first accent mark in the currentversion is:

An example of a common misspelling is *disāsterous"

I strongly think that there should be an explanation of why this article uses these accent marks before the first one appears. Tom Kelly 15:53, 1 June 2008 (CDT)

See how you like it now, Tom - Ro Thorpe 16:16, 1 June 2008 (CDT)

I like it very much! Thank you! Tom Kelly 20:20, 1 June 2008 (CDT)

So do I - thanks - Ro Thorpe 08:53, 2 June 2008 (CDT)

subpoênaed

My French wife and I were once subpoenaed to testify at a preliminary hearing about a drug case in San Francisco. For some reason the "City and County of San Francisco" spell it without a "b". My wife and the assistant DA who was questioning her on the stand took an immediate dislike to each other. Because her English certainly wasn't perfect, he asked her sharply if she knew what "subpoena" meant? She said, yes, and asked him if he knew it was misspelled.... Hehe.... Hayford Peirce 18:20, 29 August 2008 (CDT)

Good for her! Ro Thorpe 12:38, 30 August 2008 (CDT)

IPA needed

Adding IPA phonetic transcriptions would be very useful for people who don't speak English as a native language. I suggest the following layout in the "table of accents":

	Front vowels			Back vowels
	e	i	y	a	o	u	oo	w
The typical short sound:	pét [e]	pít [ɪ]	crýpt [ɪ]	cát [æ]	dóg [ɒ]	nút [ʌ/ə]
The typical long sound, corresponding to the names of the letters A, E, I, O and U:	sêe [iː]	nîce [aɪ]	mŷ [aɪ]	nâme [eɪ]	nôse [əʊ/oʊ]	tûne [juː]	toô [uː]	neŵ [juː]
The 'third' sound (ẁ- and qù- indicate the ó sound of the following a, ẁad rhyming with qùad; òu and òw are diphthongs sounding like àù in àùtobahn: nòw has this sòund):	èight [eɪ]	machìne [iː]	quaỳ water = keỳ (kêy) lock [iː]	àre [aː]	òther [ʌ/ə]	fùll [ʊ], qùantity [w]	foòt [ʊ]	ẁant [wɒ/wɔː]
The ër sound, as in ër, Î dôn’t thínk sô:	përson [ɜː]	bïrd [ɜː]	mÿrtle [ɜː]		wörd [ɜː]	pürr [ɜː]
The ŏr sound [ɔː], as in thís ŏr thát (also used for cŏin and jŏy [ɔɪ]):				såw [ɔː]	mŏre [ɔː]	(for some BrE speakers) sůre
The ãir sound [eə], as in frésh ãir:	(thére) [eə]			stãre [eə]
Irregular (with respelling):	sęw (ô) [əʊ/oʊ]	merįngue (á) [æ]		becąuse (ó) [ɒ]	wǫman (ù) [ʊ]	bųsiness (í) [ɪ]

--Domergue Sumien 21:57, 29 August 2008 (CDT)

The trouble is that not everyone has the same pronunciation. Some of your choices I have to say I find odd - who exactly uses a schwa sound for 'nut'? And the article already links to English phonemes, which has the IPA for standard BrE & AmE. Ro Thorpe 12:48, 30 August 2008 (CDT)

Pronunciation is quite similar in Standard British English and Standard American English. Nut = [nət] is not odd but current in American (see the Merriam Webster dictionary here). IPA transcriptions have a World-wide diffusion: they would make the table really more understandable for an international audience. If you keep only symbols such as "á, ê, ãi, ŏ, ų", they will remain uncommon for most readers. For readers who don't speak English as a native language, it's impossible to guess how "merįngue" has to be pronounced in the table, but they can guess it if they read immediately the IPA key į = [æ].--Domergue Sumien 18:01, 30 August 2008 (CDT)

That's interesting about 'nut': I admit I have heard that pronunciation; but my Oxford doesn't include it & it does have many American pronunciations. 'Cut', too presumably, but what about 'upper', 'coming'...? Ah, yes, I noticed the same with 'other'. Recent development, perhaps? As for "merįngue", į doesn't necessarily mean [æ]: I'm just marking the irregular stressed syllables with that symbol here in this table, ditto 'business', 'woman' etc., and I was leaving it up to others if they want to use it elsewhere in the article and related ones. If not, the stress is not shown, but it's too much hard work for little ole me... Ro Thorpe 18:51, 30 August 2008 (CDT)