Talk:Steam

Wikipedia has an article about steam

However, this article was completely re-written. Other than the drawing of a Mollier Diagram and perhaps one or two references, there may be a sentence or two taken from the WP article. Milton Beychok 05:33, 13 November 2009 (UTC)

Non-water steam?

So non-water gas is not technically steam, right? I infer as much from the opening, but would not have defined steam as water only if someone had asked me yesterday. Should the distinction be stated in the opening somewhere? --Joe Quick 15:49, 13 November 2009 (UTC)

Forgive me for butting in. Do I understand correctly that before yesterday you thought that there exist gases, called steam, that do not consist of water molecules, H₂O? What interests me is: what sort of gases, that aren't water, did you call steam before yesterday?--Paul Wormer 15:58, 13 November 2009 (UTC)

Joe, I echo Paul's comment. If the gas is not H₂0, then it definitely is not water. It is not a matter of it being "technically" correct, it is definitely correct. Milton Beychok 16:42, 13 November 2009 (UTC)

Earlier, I was trying to think of something I would call steam that is not made up of water. I couldn't do it, but I still felt like there must be something I would have called steam that was not actually water. Is boiling also specific to water? Okay, well I know that all chemicals have a boiling point, so the answer is no, but do other substances release clouds of vapor in the process? I'd have said that steam is the vapor let off when something boils. To be clear, I'm not suggesting that steam means anything other than water, but I don't know if it is totally clear to non-scientists that other chemicals can't form steam. --Joe Quick 17:36, 13 November 2009 (UTC)

Joe, yes other chemicals may form clouds of vapors when they boil or evaporate and they may be visible, colored clouds but they are not referred to as "steam". They would simply be referred to as a gaseous cloud of chemical X. Milton Beychok 17:55, 13 November 2009 (UTC)

(undent) It may, however, be useful to differentiate between aerosolized water below the boiling point, and steam. Howard C. Berkowitz 19:28, 13 November 2009 (UTC)

Okay,I yield. I added this to the second paragraph of the lede:

"Water aerosols and mists, such as those created by spray cans for misting house plants or certain types of humidifiers, may also create small visible clouds of water droplets, but aerosols, mists and fogs are not steam. Liquids other than water may also form visible clouds when vaporized, but they are not clouds of steam."

I hope that does it. Milton Beychok 21:10, 13 November 2009 (UTC)

Steam tables and Mollier diagrams

I would move these sections to separate articles. --Daniel Mietchen 16:56, 13 November 2009 (UTC)

Daniel, I completely agree that steam tables and Mollier diagrams deserve separate article of their own where they can be discussed in much more detail. However, I still believe that this article should retain the brief discussions that I provided of them. Milton Beychok 18:03, 13 November 2009 (UTC)

Just what does making a table "sortable" meant to do? As far as I can see, clicking on those "sortable" icons simply flips the table contents vertically. Instead of listing from lower temperatures to higher temperatures, it lists the table's bottom notes at the top and then lists from the higher temperatures to the lower temperatures. Is that all it was meant to do? Is there some purpose in doing that? Milton Beychok 18:20, 13 November 2009 (UTC)

I only had a very brief glance at the article and saw the mass of data in the table, thought sorting by any of the parameters might be useful, and added it. Now that I had another look, I realized that they are all temperature-dependent, so sortability doesn't add anything. Will undo it now. --Daniel Mietchen 21:49, 13 November 2009 (UTC)

Henry, thanks for your edits

Henry, thanks for picking up on mentioning steam quality and the use of steam to drive large pumps. I slightly modified you wordings to fit in a bit better with style of the article. I also moved your comment (about steam turbines driving pumps) down a few lines so that it was included in the bulleted list of "Uses in industrial facilities". Again, thanks. Milton Beychok 06:42, 21 November 2009 (UTC)

vacuum sealing of food packaging

Isn't steam also used for vacuum sealing of food packaging ? Steam is blown in to displace air from the final air pocket in a small package of food, then the package is sealed and the steam pocket condenses to water, leaving behind a vacuum space or no space at all for flexible plastic wrapping. I did not put this application for steam into the article because I could not find a reference to support it. Henry A. Padleckas 14:00, 21 November 2009 (UTC)

You've got me there ... I don't know anything at all about vacuum sealing. I am sure that there are dozens of other uses for steam, but I tried to stick to just major uses. Milton Beychok 17:04, 21 November 2009 (UTC)

See autoclave. I thought I had started an article on canning, which isn't quite the same as plastic vacuum packing. Howard C. Berkowitz 19:43, 21 November 2009 (UTC)

Culture

Perhaps some of this will go under steam engine, but I can't help but think we would have a better article for a bit of poetic imagery on the subject. There are many, but one of my favorites is McAndrew's Hymn by Rudyard Kipling [1]. Consider its first lines in the lede:

Lord, Thou hast made this world below the shadow of a dream,
An', taught by time, I tak' it so - exceptin' always Steam.
From coupler-flange to spindle-guide I see Thy Hand, O God -
Predestination in the stride o' yon connectin'-rod. 

All engineers should be at least honorary Scots. Howard C. Berkowitz 18:28, 9 March 2010 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure Kipling was referring to a steam engine ... perhaps in a railroad locomotive, and I agree that the poem belongs in one of those articles. Milton Beychok 19:39, 9 March 2010 (UTC)

The whole poem makes it clear it's a ship. Howard C. Berkowitz 05:26, 10 March 2010 (UTC)

Aeolipile

Surely an article on steam or the steam engine should include the very first development:

Sorry about the reference to the competition

Have a look at this just for fun!

--Graham Proud 10:23, 6 June 2010 (UTC)

Graham, this article is about defining steam and its properties rather than about steam engines. A separate stand-alone article about steam engines would be interesting. How about you writing such an article? Milton Beychok 15:49, 6 June 2010 (UTC)